Lianne Shinton (00:01)

Hey everybody and welcome to my podcast. I'm Lianne Shinton from Automation Dogs and I have a podcast we speak with professional trainers, new trainers, and we mainly talk about business. Sometimes I have the honor like today to speak with an amazing, incredible, very accomplished trainer who is one of our mentors and idols. And that is Dave Croyer. Welcome, Dave.

Dave (00:27)

Thank you. Thank you for having me. And before I forget, if I'm not mistaken, happy birthday to you. It is your birthday, right? Yay, happy birthday.

Lianne Shinton (00:32)

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yes. It is. Yes. Thank you.

Thank you. It's funny because, you know, back in the day, I'd be like, oh, yeah, it's my 21st birthday. And everybody's like, happy 21. But I learned it's better to lie up than to lie down because they're like, ooh, like, maybe you should drink some more water. So now I'll be like, yes, I'm 78.

Dave (00:51)

Yeah.

Lianne Shinton (00:59)

And the trick is a glass of water a day. So yes, thank you. And Dave has two brands, which I think is so smart. You have DaveCroyer.com and you have K9 headquarters. I love that name and it's K9 written out, not the letter K number nine. I love that ⁓ DaveCroyer.com that's so smart. And a lot of folks

Dave (01:06)

You're welcome.

Lianne Shinton (01:27)

don't really want to be known and they don't want to put themselves out there. They don't want to be bothered. How did you get there? What made you focus on yourself as the brand?

Dave (01:38)

Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. No one's really ever asked me that. And there was a reason for it all. Normally, anything I do, I have a reason for it. ⁓ I had to, first of all, coming from where I came from in my previous career as a dog trainer, I was a professional musician, okay? Which I'm back doing semi-professionally right now. But my whole career as a musician,

You know, a lot of people would, would ask me, Hey, are you in a band? What band? And really what I was considered is what we call a session musician or a mercenary. I'd be hired all the time for many different projects, like from international pop artists to whatever. I could come off the road and be playing a wedding or a bar mitzvah the next weekend. Right. But I thought it was always important that my name was the brand.

Lianne Shinton (02:22)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Dave (02:37)

Because in the end, as long as I don't die, right, or go away, that always remains. And when I started into dog training, when I started my own business, of course, the company, I wanted the company to have a name, a brand, but I always was thinking about the future, especially the way that, you know, we're not a big business. used to have employees. We don't have any of that anymore.

But I needed everything to still revolve around my name at some point. And that was what was incredibly important for me, ⁓ that my name didn't get lost in the dust. Right. So I have different avenues to, you know, make a living and make money. When somebody hires me for a seminar, they're not hiring canine headquarters. They're hiring Dave Croyer. Right. But if you were to Google dog trainers in Austin or whatever,

Lianne Shinton (03:18)

Mm-hmm.

Dave (03:35)

canine headquarters is gonna come up because the reality is the pet community does not know who I am. And it's not relevant if they do. Now, if they go to canine headquarters, maybe my name is dropped there a little bit. They see some of my accomplishments, maybe. I haven't even seen that website recently, ⁓ but there'll probably be a link then to my other page, right? And then they'll click on that and go, wow, this guy is.

Not just your normal everyday dog trainer. And that it was important for me until I am completely done with this industry that my personal name is always there. Right.

Lianne Shinton (04:16)

Yeah. Yeah. And I get where it's a tough decision because if something happens to you, you you it's the brand. So yeah, it's, it's a lot to think through. I like it though. And I, cause you've accomplished so much. is about you. You are the brand, but I love canine headquarters and I especially love that name. And when I went there, I was like, dock diving. That's one of my things, Mondial ring also, but dock diving. Do you have a pool?

Dave (04:32)

Right.

Yeah,

what was important, you know, for me, for more than one reason is, listen, I would consider myself kind of in the twilight of my career. Now let's not kid ourselves. I'm older. I'm much more beat up, right? But it was important to me that I'm not, that you can't pigeonhole me, right? Like we offer and at one point offered everything. And if anyone from the sport community,

Lianne Shinton (05:05)

Mm-hmm.

Dave (05:13)

the people that know me, they know I've been involved in pretty much every major sport at a high level. So even when we opened up K9 headquarters, we offered everything. It wasn't just, well, Dave's an IGP and a ring guy. Okay, I did AKC obedience. I do UKC obedience. Nose work. I'm a nose work judge still currently. AKC tracking, ⁓ police dog training, law enforcement. I'm a consultant for the 341st. ⁓

Department of Defense, that's on top of my IJP French ring, Mondial ring. It's like, whatever you want to do, truly a canine headquarters. What, is your interest? Including the everyday, ⁓ companion dog training. And of course the everyday reactive dog stuff that we deal with, right? That unfortunately, a lot of times becomes our bread and butter, but,

Lianne Shinton (05:53)

Yeah.

Dave (06:08)

It really encompasses everything. And I thought it was incredibly important to. If I advertise that on my website, I need to be fluent and a master at all of them. And that was important for me from day one, right? Like if I'm going to try to take somebody's money, I had better be a master at whatever that is, whatever venue that I'm advertising, which is a lot of venues, right?

Lianne Shinton (06:22)

Ow.

Yeah,

and that makes me think of one question that I wanted to ask you today. If you could just snap your fingers overnight and become a master of some skill, what would it be?

Dave (06:55)

I, I'm, I'm happy with what I try to do now. There's two major things in my life. One that's come back full circle. Obviously I still train dogs. I still compete at a high level. ⁓ you know, I get that, that word master gets thrown around a lot, right? I have a lot of experience if that's what master means. Right. And me, myself as a musician, you know, I, ⁓ got out of the industry when I was 29 years old and that's about when I started.

my dog training career. And as of two years ago, I'm 56 years old now, I started back up into the music industry two years ago. And it was a kind of, ⁓ I don't want to say a weird thing, can I vowed I'd never do that again, but ⁓ you know, life changes and things change in your life. And I started doing that again. And ⁓ I think I've come full circle and I'm very happy and complacent with the two things.

I do other things too. I liked, I'm a cyclist. like to race mountain bikes and BMX, but that was a problem for me because I was getting injured a lot, pretty severely injured to racing because of course I wanted to win all the time. Right. And I w well, when you're doing something like that, you are taking, you want to win. It's not if you're going to get injured, it's when are you going to get injured? Any, to any athlete that's competing in a high level.

will get injured and ⁓ injuries were kind of piling up with me, pretty severe ones and really taking me out of life for months on end. ⁓ And I woke up one day and said, well, I think I need to find something else to do. And it just kind of happened organically that I got back into the music industry and ⁓

whatever a full-time musician means, I am playing a lot now and I could, if I wanted to, I could say, okay, I'm done dog training and go back to, but I do a lot of things in my life. So I like to keep it interesting. So as long as I'm not hurting myself, ⁓ I'm okay. But yeah, those are the two things, being an animal trainer. And a lot of times I like to say animal trainer, not dog trainer. Cause in my career I have,

Lianne Shinton (09:04)

you

Dave (09:15)

been hired to train other things than just dogs and still do to this day. And then my musician thing that I do.

Lianne Shinton (09:25)

It's interesting though, because a lot of people, you could ask that question, like if you could become a master of something tomorrow, what would it be? But it sounds like you're very happy with the journey and the accomplishments you've made and they fit. They fit perfectly for you and you don't wish for something else.

Dave (09:42)

Yeah.

No, I'm a firm believer. If you want to do something, do it. Whatever it is for you, whether it's dog training or if I asked you that question right now, why don't I ask it to you? What would you like to be a master of?

Lianne Shinton (09:57)

It's interesting because I think that for me, I would like to be a master of some of these things that are simple, that I'm just not that good at, like cooking, dressing myself nicely, in, you know, decorating my house.

Dave (10:07)

Sure. So my response would be, let's do it. Like let's

you, if you want, and I challenge anybody to do that, right. Like do it, let's do it. Let's do Lee and the master chef, right? Like you're never too old to do whatever. I always joke. And I have a meme that I put on my Facebook pages. We all have the same 24 users wisely.

Lianne Shinton (10:20)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dave (10:33)

Right? Because there's a lot of time and what the 24 represents hours in a day. There are people that are absolutely amazed at what, you know, all the things that I do. And it's, it's pretty interesting when I started playing music again and doing it as a professional. You know, my wife, I didn't meet my wife at that part of my career. I met my wife as a dog trainer. She knew I was a musician. I think I played a very little part time.

But she goes, well, how are you going to do this stuff where you're playing at two, two in the morning and you come home and you're not in bed? I think she, she, we never really talked about it, but I thought she would assume that I was going to sleep all day. I am literally up at the same, maybe a half hour later, right? Which means instead of six 30, seven or seven 15, but I try to utilize every minute of the day.

I'm a big believer of taking care of your body. I'm a big believer of getting enough sleep. I'm in that because that's the only thing that'll make it happen. Right. Like, especially when you're old and broken down like me, but yeah, as far as, being everybody should do it, do whatever it, whatever it is, whatever is your goal, you know, reach for the stars because we can all do it. Everybody can do it.

Lianne Shinton (11:42)

I like that challenge. I like that.

Yeah, great, great challenge. Now you mentioned music and I love music. I love watching live music. If you could be a drummer in any band, what band would that be?

Dave (12:08)

⁓ you know, that's another loaded question. I don't like to name drop, but I played with some, when I was doing it full time when I was younger, I played with some very major artists. Some people that are close to me know that I toured with Cher for many years, or sorry, for many months. ⁓

Lianne Shinton (12:26)

Wow.

Wow.

Dave (12:31)

Not that that's my type of music, but as a hired mercenary that has to make money, you take jobs that pay a lot, right? ⁓ I was on the road with new kids on the block, Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch. And these, you know, people may giggle when they hear those names. The interesting thing is I have an associate's degree in jazz performance, a master's degree in music education, and those are just pop gigs. But you take whatever.

Right? Like I like playing music and I like it if it's good. And I also like getting paid. Right? ⁓ Currently I play with five different bands, which is very a normal thing for somebody like myself. I play with a 17 piece jazz big band. I play with a three piece psychobilly surf band. I play with a country band. I have my own jazz trio. That is sometimes a quartet with a female singer. And I play with a Latin salsa band.

or a kind of world music, Latin salsa type of band. So it's just like my dog training. You can't pigeonhole me, right? And I like variety and I'm a student of music, right? So for a lot of people that maybe aren't educated about music, they view music of what they know and they see as far as Western music, Western rock music, which is what.

90 % of the population listens to, right? But it's a very big world out there, a very big world out there. And there's lots of music, you know, I have friends of mine, even when I was in school, I didn't even listen to rock music really until I was probably 29.

Lianne Shinton (14:13)

Wow.

Dave (14:15)

So I have, you know, and I don't even want to say eclectic tastes. I it's the same with dog training. I like to put on a different hat every three hours, right?

Lianne Shinton (14:26)

It's amazing. Have you been to Nashville?

Dave (14:30)

Yeah, performed there many times.

Lianne Shinton (14:33)

hockey talks, pretty fun.

Dave (14:34)

Yep. Yeah, I mean, down on Broadway, it's kind of like our sixth street down here in Austin. ⁓ It's fun to visit. And I performed there. ⁓ Some of those jobs tend to be a pain in the butt, but I've recorded on Music Row before and I've worked with artists at Bass out of Nashville. ⁓ because I went to school, well, my education for music started in Milwaukee. I'm from Wisconsin.

Lianne Shinton (14:45)

Mm-hmm.

Damn.

Dave (15:03)

where I attended the conservatory music there and UWM. Then I moved out to LA and I was going to another technical school, music school in Hollywood and UCLA at the same time. ⁓ I lived many places in the United States, including ⁓ in the West Indies. So I've been a lot of places.

Lianne Shinton (15:27)

Is this genetic? Like how did you get so, I mean, you're focused to go to the highest level in so many things, but a lot of us were not focused and we're doing, we're spreading it too thin and we're trying to go in eight different directions and we never get to the, you know, we'll call it expert level in any of them, but you seem like, is it genetic?

Dave (15:50)

Yeah, I, this is a great question. And these are the kinds of things that I like to talk about nowadays. If somebody wants to do a podcast and I'm sure you'll bring up questions that for me, but I often really think about this because a lot of people, there's something that people say to me that bothers me a lot. They'll either say you're so good or you whatever it is, dog training music, or even when I was racing bikes and I still cycle,

Wow, you're incredible. You're so talented. And I just don't feel I am. What I am is a little bit of a freak of a workaholic.

I am that and I get hyper focused with whatever I want to do, whatever I decide I'm going to do. and it consumes me and you know, I obsess about it. You know, when you talk about dog training, I, know, especially with these sports that are, these are difficult sports, you know, that we do when we get, when new people get into them, I warn them and I say, well, you can do it as a hobbyist. That's fine. But if you're trying to succeed at a high level,

Um, your mindset's going to have to change, right? Like there were years, you know, that, that I was isolated from doing anything, but focused on dog championships. Right? I mean, there were times that I had a dog running in ring sport and IGP two different dogs at the same time competing at the highest level. Um, I always love to tell the story. There was one.

IJP world championship that I was competing in an FCI world championship with one of my German shepherds. I flew home on a Monday, dropped that dog off, did whatever laundry I could do. And that Wednesday, two days later, I flew back to France with my Malinois for a Mondial Ring world championship. Like that's insane. It really, that it's absolutely insanity. mean,

Lianne Shinton (17:42)

Damn. That's insane. Yeah.

Dave (17:48)

And if anyone that does even just a little bit of this, they're like, holy, you know, think two different dogs, two different sports. Not, not that for me, the languages are no big deal, but completely night and day, different sports, then going international with them. And it was just hyper-focus. That's all it is. And I go, I'm going to do that. And if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it to the best of my ability. Um, and I think helping people.

with dog training, I believe was a side product, a side, you know, it was a by-product of what I do. Although when I left the music industry, I chose dog training as a career. I had no idea the avenues, right? But I was like, well, I like interacting with my dogs. And if, if being a professional dog trainer allows me time to do that.

then that's going to work for me. But what always, even to this day, the thing that drives me and motivates from the dog training standpoint is my dogs get worked first thing in the morning, no matter what. And I know a lot of people that have businesses, they're like, well, I've got to do this. I've got to do that. I'm like, there's where you have to figure out either, either get up earlier or change your focus or be better management manager with your time.

Because the day that I want to, I don't want to be involved in training my own competitive dogs any longer is probably the day that I'm going to stop. And I'll figure out another way to make money to pay the rent and eat food. Well, I have the fallback as a musician, but I'm very driven, right? Like, and if that's one of the most important things for me, my dogs, my competitive stuff, and I'm very competitive by nature, then that has to be on the forefront.

Lianne Shinton (19:14)

Well, thank

Mm-hmm.

Dave (19:43)

regardless what's happening that day with clients and everything else.

Lianne Shinton (19:48)

Now you mentioned the dirt biking and cycling and the injuries. If you could safely experience any dangerous thing that you could try and you could do it safely, what would you do?

Dave (20:04)

⁓ skydiving still on my to-do list. Yeah. And I'm afraid, I'm afraid of heights. but that is probably one thing that I would like to do. I, you know, I like to do outdoors type of things. ⁓ with my cycle wing, I've traveled around the world, mountain biking to, you know, Canada, overseas in Europe, everywhere in the United States. So I like that I'm an adventure type of guy.

Lianne Shinton (20:05)

That's terrifying. Me too.

Dave (20:32)

Never skydived before and would love to try that in my lifetime yet.

Lianne Shinton (20:37)

So

what, have you looked into anything to address the fear of heights? Cause I have a fear of heights and when I go to like Yellowstone and I'm hiking on the edge of some cliff, it's not even fun for me. I'm miserable and terrified and it sucks.

Dave (20:52)

Yeah. I mean, I don't, I've never really thought how to address it. I just faced the fear because a lot of times when I, if I'm mountain biking at extreme elevation, you know, in maybe what we call back country mountain biking, where the trails are a little sketchy and you're, you're pretty far out there, right? Like there's no, ⁓ ambulance coming to get you. I I'll be riding on a lot of trails that have incredible exposure, right? That means that like, wow.

I'm literally on a cliff and can see for down 10,000 feet and blah, blah, blah. And I just, try, maybe it's a challenge, right? I'm like, well, I better stay focused here because if I don't, I'm gonna die and that type of thing. generally don't try, I just face the fear and deal with it. So I'm sure I'll be able to skydive and I'm probably gonna freak the hell out, but. ⁓

On the other note, it's like, well, I fly a lot, so I'm over that, right? It's just going to be pushing me out the door. That may be little tricky. Right. I may sign something no matter how hard I fight, you push me out this door.

Lianne Shinton (21:59)

I don't know that they can, there might be a liability if they push you.

And

so I bungee jumped and it was really hard for me to climb the ladder. It was just, couldn't even, I froze and I finally got up there and then I walked out on the plank and I'm like, you're gonna have to push me. And they said, we can't push you, there's a liability, blah, blah. And I eventually had to like just kind of fall and ⁓ I still remember it, but yeah, it's tough.

Dave (22:14)

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that could be an option for me also. ⁓ You know, I've visited ⁓ New Zealand many times. I'm actually visiting there again, working ⁓ in fall and they have a lot of that, right? Like extreme bungee jumping, you know, and yeah, so I bet, you know, last time I was there, I'm like, I'm just going to stick to mountain biking, did some pretty epic mountain biking there. ⁓ But maybe this time around,

Lianne Shinton (22:48)

Walking through the tops of the tree, canopy stuff, yeah.

Dave (23:01)

I might look into it. We'll see. If I'm going to die, guess New Zealand wouldn't be the worst place to do it.

Lianne Shinton (23:06)

⁓ okay.

Yeah, I

have not been there, but my mom is a solo traveler. She lost her husband and she's been traveling solo all around and she's in New Zealand right now. And she sent me a picture of the tree canopy excursion that she was going to do. And I'm like, I hope you got, you know, your will ready to go. Geez, mom. Okay. I already know the answer to my next question because of the way you are, but if Jurassic Park was a real place.

Dave (23:28)

Right.

Lianne Shinton (23:39)

with real dinosaurs, would you go? Yeah. Now, would you just have a couple beers before you go? Yeah, would you wait and see how it went when they first opened or would you just be the first one in line?

Dave (23:42)

100%. I'd be there tomorrow. I might be afraid, but I would be there.

Yeah, exactly.

No, I'd be the first one in line. Yeah, like with these things, like that doesn't mean I'm not freaking out. Like I freak out about the same as everybody does about stuff. know, people ask me when I'm competing, are you nervous? Well, God, yeah. You know, like it's understanding how to deal with fear and being nervous and that stuff.

Lianne Shinton (24:03)

Okay, I'm not sure where I'd.

Yeah.

Dave (24:27)

And that is one thing that competing with dogs has taught me over my, ⁓ over three decades, how to deal with that. Like those feelings don't go away. I just know how to manage them and I manage them very well. Also, what's important is because you have that X factor, you have another living organism with you. If you do not know how to manage that, the animal will pick up on that. And that's, we see that constantly. I'm sure you've seen it even.

If you're working with a companion dog client, if they're nervous a little bit or something is off, but for sure competitively, it's a big deal. But I just, I've made it a thing for me over the years. Dave figure out how to get this stuff under control. Now this being said back, you know, when I was a full-time musician, I could easily play in front of arena of 50,000 people. And I was also nervous the first few times I did that, but then it was,

like anything else, you know, you learn how to manage it.

Lianne Shinton (25:31)

Yeah. And I've been on the side of being in a trial where you're the judge and you helped me to feel comfortable and, that really helped a lot. You judged, think we were in level one Mondial ring and we caught, we qualified for the world team and went on to Russia. And I was nervous trialing, but when I walked out on that stage in Russia, like I didn't even think I could walk. My legs were shaking so bad.

Yeah, it's,

Dave (26:03)

Yeah, I

think, you know, and I'm glad you said that as a judge, I've resigned from being a Mondial Ring judge. I'm now an IGP judge. ⁓ But it's very important, especially at the club level, for me to make people feel relaxed. And I tell everybody, please respect the field, respect the sport, respect the dog, respect me, but I want you to relax, right? Like that, and when I started judging initially in Mondial Ring,

People were very nervous about me. They're like, oh, Dave's gonna kill us. He's gonna be a real hard judge. One thing is I'm still a competitor at a very high level. And I take these things in consideration, right? And a club level needs to be handled differently from a, I can judge a world championship. Matter of fact, I have some championships coming up next year that I'll be judging. Those are judged differently, right? My judging needs to be appropriate for whatever level.

Lianne Shinton (26:57)

Mm-hmm, yep.

Dave (27:00)

And I have compassion for club level people, new people, and that type of thing. So my goal is to try to make them feel comfortable.

Lianne Shinton (27:08)

Yes. And you did a wonderful job. I was super nervous and you helped me to reach my goal. Yeah. We were, we were in PA at Paul's. Yeah. Paul's. yeah, yeah. It, ⁓ it really helped me. And I qualified then for the U S team to go to Russia, which was a big job because it was Russia and getting United States team. Yeah.

Dave (27:13)

Where were we in? Were we in PA or where are we in? Yeah. At Todd's Paul. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, that's a big one.

Lianne Shinton (27:36)

But yeah, it was quite an amazing experience. So yeah, thank you for helping me along that path with my dog who's now 10. So it's been quite a journey. Now my next question, I don't know that you're even gonna be able to answer this. What's something you enjoy that most people would find boring?

Dave (27:44)

You're welcome.

⁓ no, that's a great question. It's a really good question. And, ⁓ I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to give you the standard answer. ⁓ I love, you know, fish with the head on, or I love eating electric eel. I love repetition.

Lianne Shinton (28:17)

Mm-hmm, you have to with the level of competition you reach.

Dave (28:19)

Yeah. And, and,

⁓ it's not, don't even want to say because sometimes it's incredibly boring and it's not fun.

As I often talk about doing things at a high level, practicing at high level is not fun. It can be incredibly stressful. But I love the repetitive nature. gives me a calming effect. Now, in the recent years, I've talked to other people regarding this and I'm curious why do I like that? Why does it give me a calming effect? ⁓ It could have to do...

I was speaking with somebody the other day regarding, ⁓ autism, ⁓ ADHD and stuff like that, which when I was young, nobody really talked about them, right? Like nobody was on Ritalin. Nobody was, ⁓ whatever. If you were acting up, you'd get swatted across the room. Right. ⁓ but could it be possible that I have some of these things that we never even realize, right. That repetitive things call me. I'm not sure.

But I like, I get a very calming effect. later on, right now I practice music stuff for four hours a day, you know, which is a lot of people like, my God, how do you find the time? It's not, it's just what I do. It's not every day, you know, I eat dinner at four o'clock, which blows a lot of people's minds. ⁓ And at 4.30 after my dog has had her, my Beagle's had her snack, I go in the studio and I practice for four hours.

and the calming effect doing repetitive stuff. And I'm talking about it's repetitive because my practice is not what people think. you just play drums and go crazy. No, it's incredibly controlled practice, repetitive stuff over and over and over and over and over. And when I'm done at like quarter to eight, I'm like, wow, you know, it's like this feeling, ⁓ not even quite of an accomplishment. I just go,

You know, the brain gets to let free and let loose and I can decompress and sit there and do nine mind numbing things for a minute, like watching the office or something stupid like that, you know.

Lianne Shinton (30:33)

you

Do you drive your wife crazy because this seems like a lot to live with?

Dave (30:50)

⁓ wait, we've never really discussed it or talked about it.

Lianne Shinton (30:57)

Yeah, that. ⁓

Dave (30:59)

I mean, how are you gonna, how do you stop it? Like, what are you gonna do? Like, okay, it may annoy somebody, but the other beautiful thing about living on 12 acres is I could go two days and maybe not see her. She's out with the goats and the livestock in the back. You know, maybe we see each other for five minutes in the morning, but she's doing her thing, I'm doing my thing, and it's a big property that we have to maintain. I'm not always here, she's not always here.

Lianne Shinton (31:02)

Yeah.

You have space.

Dave (31:27)

So that helps. It's not like we're living in a small house in the middle of a subdivision where that might be hard. That might be hard to live with me like that.

Lianne Shinton (31:35)

Yeah.

And it gives you balance too. And I think for any couple, any relationship, you need space and you need your own things. And sometimes that's a tough thing for us dog trainers who go into running a business as a husband and wife and everything is the same and together. So I like how you've got balance and separation. That sounds smart.

Dave (31:52)

Right.

Yeah,

even, you know, she is, I guess, is she vice president of canine headquarters? I don't know what her title is on paper. She does have a title. I mean, she was part of it. She trained dogs. She was a pretty high level dog trainer. ⁓ and it was just, it got a little tricky. And I understand this too, when she was competing and you know, like she was doing IGP and I was.

the helper and I was her coach, that was a little tricky. ⁓ Because you have me who is like, no, this has to be perfect, right? And if it's not, there's a joke with my clients. There's no crying, there's no getting upset. If you're gonna do that, then I can't work with you because I'm not a therapist. I have my own demons in my own head. But... ⁓

Lianne Shinton (32:34)

Yeah.

Hmm

Dave (32:58)

It was a little tricky working close together when she was competing at a high level because I'm incredibly demanding, incredibly demanding. And then sometimes if you take that, whatever happened on the field out here into the house, that can be tricky. I should have learned when I got into the sport, the dog sport thing earlier in my life, 28, 30 years ago, I trained a lot in Belgium and I had friends from Belgium.

Lianne Shinton (33:04)

I bet.

Dave (33:27)

And I knew a lot of couples, right? And the husband and wife, boyfriend and girlfriend would train dogs. And I remember one time being in Belgium, we were training at a club and I said to my friend, ⁓ Yonathan, said, well, where's your wife? And he looked at me and goes, she's training tonight. I go, well, where is she? He goes, she don't train with me. She trains at the club down the couple of miles away. And I go, what do mean? He goes, no, no, no, no, no.

Lianne Shinton (33:49)

Mm-hmm.

Dave (33:56)

We can't train together. And this whole, my whole life, I see young couples training together and I go, be careful of that. Just be careful. It sounds romantic and everything in the beginning. ⁓ Don't take it in the house.

Lianne Shinton (33:56)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah. And I can speak

to that, with my boyfriend, Brett. I wouldn't let him come to any of my Mondial ring trials. He would, he's still to this day is like, best friend, Bri got to go to Russia and got to go to Poland with you and all these places. And I'm like, yep. Because she, you know, he's so competitive and you know, he would just say something like, would say, okay, I won the trial. got a one 95 and a half. Where did you lose your points?

Dave (34:21)

Right.

Lianne Shinton (34:41)

And I'm like, I take it too personally. Whereas if you had to ask me, hey Leanne, what'd you lose your points on? And I'd be like the retrieve, cause you know, yeah.

Dave (34:42)

Right.

Which is something I would ask also, but

like that's not maybe your partner's place at that moment to ask. Right. Um, I don't, my wife has, let's see, I think maybe in 28, well, how long we been married? 25 years, something like that. She came to one world championship in 2001 in Slovakia with me that where I was competing and she said, yeah, I'm not coming to one of these again. And it's not like.

Lianne Shinton (34:57)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Dave (35:21)

We never have, there's a never anything where she got, I just don't like, I just don't want, I don't want to deal with you during that. Right. And she would never, she goes, no, you've got to stay. But the thing about, like, I respect, thank you for saying that. Right. Because if I'm going to a world championship and I'm bringing a partner, this isn't time for me to sight see. And.

Lianne Shinton (35:29)

Yep. Yep.

Yeah.

Dave (35:44)

Make sure you're happy and you're getting, you know, I've got me in this dog and I'm trying to stay hyper focused. And you know, a lot of times people forget athletes, especially Olympians when they're traveling, especially Olympians, because they're young and they're on a team. They have policies, no boyfriends, no girlfriends in the room, blah, blah, blah. All that. Now, whether they break them or not, I have no idea, but you know, um, typically gymnasts, you know, they go years without having a boyfriend, just staying hyper focused.

Lianne Shinton (36:14)

Yeah.

Dave (36:14)

Right. and, know, outside of maybe a club trial here on my field, I'm trying to think maybe a regional championship, my wife, she probably wouldn't saw me compete because she was competing there herself. But, ⁓ I often tell the story to a lot of people, my, my good friend and colleague, Debbie Zappia, who has always been a mentor of mine from a training standpoint. I've been on many world teams with her and her husband and her, you know, her daughter would come along.

⁓ but they were not allowed to stay with her in her room. They had to have separate rooms. And I talked to Debbie intensively about that extensively about that. ⁓ and she goes, well, Dave, you know, the deal. Like, yeah, my husband and my daughter can come and they can go sightseeing and everything, but I'm here for this. That's it. And, and somebody said, well, God, isn't your husband, Terry, does he get upset? She's like, no, she,

Lianne Shinton (36:48)

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Dave (37:12)

told him he wants to be with the boys doing his thing he don't want to deal with me right

Lianne Shinton (37:16)

Yeah,

yeah, the stress of that high level competition and I've never competed at, you know, all of the high levels, just, just one, but yeah, it's, it's a different type of stress and you don't want to be around us at that stage. think if you're going to a world championship and you want to sightsee, plan for it after, ⁓ once you can breathe again and yeah, yeah.

Dave (37:24)

Right.

Yeah.

after.

Yeah.

Yeah,

people and you know, because you've done it, but people don't understand. You know what? One of the hardest parts of a world champion getting there with your dog, the first two days of travel, that's a nightmare. People don't understand that is like, honestly, if I, if I make another world team, I'm not sure if I want to even go. I've done it now with 13 to 14 times that putting your dog on the plane and hoping it gets to the final destination.

Lianne Shinton (37:51)

Mm-hmm.

Dave (38:11)

you know, picking it up in cargo, blah, blah, blah, all the stress that comes with that. And then making sure the dog's healthy and you know, everything's in line. That, just that is stressful.

Lianne Shinton (38:24)

100 % very strict law.

Dave (38:25)

And yours was even

tougher because Russia is a tough one. You don't just fly to Russia like you do to Frankfurt, Germany or, you know, France or the UK or ⁓ even Amsterdam. Those are easy. That's, you know, three movies and a meal and a little nap and you're there and no big deal.

Lianne Shinton (38:43)

You

Yep, agreed. And you mentioned Olympians, like you sound like you know Olympians. Well, tell me about that.

Dave (38:58)

I mean, I actually, have, I know a few, like, I have a client that was an Olympian skier, a downhill skier for France. And she trained with me for quite a long time. She recently just moved back to France, like in October or something like that. Now she is my age, but she was an Olympian on their ski team back, you know, in her youth.

I tend to surround myself with also a lot of people that do things at high levels.

Lianne Shinton (39:37)

Yeah, I see that.

Dave (39:37)

whatever it

is, you know, if it was, when I was racing bikes, I would gravitate to people that are better than me, that are where I want to be as a dog trainer. It gets a little bit difficult as a dog trainer because not many people can help me. I have to have somebody at least at my level, like if they're spotting me or if I'm asking for help with something. ⁓ So that, becomes difficult and

What interesting thing about, know, I've in the last year, I've been reading a lot about and researching about people like myself. What, how does it happen? What makes it tick? Right. And, um, things that people don't really maybe know about me, they've seen all my video, you know, 600 videos on DKATV and Facebook posts. Outside of that, I isolate a lot.

I can go days maybe on this property if I don't have clients where I don't speak a word and I don't have circles. and when I do tend to socialize, it's a very small circle with, I, I would people that are incredibly successful at with whatever they do.

Lianne Shinton (41:02)

Yeah, and I totally, I get that surrounding yourself with people that are better than you. I love that. I could definitely see where that's challenging for you to find people at that level. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dave (41:14)

Yeah, it can get really tough. there's

no, mean, I don't want definitely not tooting my horn, but like if I go, okay, Texas, which is a big state, you know, who, who, is there somebody better than me? I don't know. Maybe I don't, I've won our regional championship 17 years, you know, and like, I, if they're better than me, I'd probably know who they were. And it's not that I don't trust people that are not as good as me.

But if I'm going to have somebody helping me or spotting me, they have to at least be close to my level, have the eyes that I have, and preferably know me a little bit and know how I am. Because when I do have people helping me, you know, like my helper for IGP, Jared, who is a phenomenal world-class helper, and one of my good friends, Chris Oakwin, ⁓ they've known me. And Jared hasn't known me as long as Chris have, but

Lianne Shinton (41:55)

Yeah.

Dave (42:11)

I'm not the easiest to deal with. It's not a fun party when we're training. It can be maybe afterwards, we'll have a couple beers and stuff, but it can get very intense. I can get very short. I demand perfection. ⁓ I have yelled at helpers that are working my dog, taking the sleeve off of their arm and said, let me show you how an old man can do it better than you. Right? Like, and.

Lianne Shinton (42:20)

Right.

Yeah.

Dave (42:40)

That's just how it is. And in the heat of the moment, I'm not perhaps the funnest person to be with, but at the end of the day, we're all there for a goal, right? And the goal is to win and whatever that takes, right? And if you can't handle the heat in the kitchen, you've got to be out. I'm speaking like that though, I won't invite people into my hot kitchen that I don't think can take it.

Lianne Shinton (42:49)

Yeah.

cat.

Yeah, and it does take a village, a small village to help get that dog and that team to the highest level. But yeah, your criteria for that village is very high, which makes absolute perfect sense. So I wanted to ask you this question. What is something people may assume about you or you think they may assume about you that isn't true?

Dave (43:30)

Well, I touched on it. There may be a few things, but that I'm a social person. not, I'm in less a circle is very tight. Now I can put on a fake smile and a face and I've done it for many years, whether it was when I was in the music industry or as a professional dog trainer, traveling around and doing seminars, but in private, I isolate a lot. ⁓ You know, there was a period I think

Uh, maybe we go back 10 years ago where I was doing seminars every weekend and it was one seminar that I, could, it distinctly sticks out my mind where I was a little quiet. I don't remember if I was not feeling well, I was in a bad mood about something or whatever. Right. And, um, there was a, a mur, a murmur going around the seminar. Wow. What's wrong with Dave?

And I just kept thinking to myself, nothing's wrong with me. This is kind of how I really am. You know, if I'm not speaking in front of a bunch of people or performing in a bunch of people. So, ⁓ I don't want to say I'm an introvert and a lot of people say, yeah, I'm an introvert because I don't like to be around people. It's not even that, but I honestly can go days without being around people. Sometimes days without speaking.

Easily, especially when I come home from a seminar. If, unless I have a client and I try not to book clients right when I come back from a seminar, I want a day or two to decompress. I won't talk. Literally, I will not talk. I won't even speak with my wife. But I mean, unless something happened at home, there's really not much we have to speak about, right? I mean, ⁓ but I'm very quiet and you, ⁓

Lianne Shinton (45:06)

Interesting.

Dave (45:23)

I think maybe that's about it. I think the whole thing about me being a musician now that it's kind of, a lot of people knew that about me even in the dog world prior, because every time I did an interview going as far back as I can remember, I mentioned that. ⁓ But when people look at me, I may look like the eccentric rocker or whatever, know, label it however you want. People are shocked when I go, well, I don't really...

I'm not, I don't listen to a lot of rock music, but what do you listen to? Like there's shock, like while there's other music out there, I'm like, I listen to a lot of jazz. listened to a lot of world music, a lot of Afro Cuban music. listened to a lot of classical music, ⁓ stuff like that. ⁓ You know, I'm coming from my schooling as a musician. I'm an educated musician, right?

Lianne Shinton (45:58)

Mm-hmm

Dave (46:15)

Like I'm not just putting on the latest Motley Crue album or like that's not really what I do. So people are kind of shocked and they look at me like complete Bill Wilderman. And I just like, well, you know, it's a big world out there. It's a very big world out there. ⁓

Lianne Shinton (46:33)

And this

is so enlightening because I've met you in person and you were just helpful and you sat down with us and had great conversations. It was fun and engaging. it is eye opening that you prefer isolation and...

Dave (46:52)

And when I'm also Liam, when I'm in public, like if I'm judging, no matter how I feel, I try my hardest to be the normal guy next door. Because that's all I am. That's all you are. That's all any of us are. Right? Like, yeah, I do a lot of cool shit. I why can I like to, right? And I like to do it at a high level, but I don't have this magic thing. It's a lot of work.

Lianne Shinton (47:02)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dave (47:21)

I put it, you know, like even at this point in my life, being back in the music industry, a lot of the dog people are like, wow, I can't believe how, how'd you get that good? I'm like, I did go to college for many years. Like I'm like, did you go to college? They're like, yeah. I'm like, well, what did you do when you went to college? You studied, right? They're like, yeah. I'm like, well, how many years for, and I'm like, you understand that's what I did. My major was music though. Right.

Lianne Shinton (47:52)

Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting learning about you and your intricacies. So thank you so much for sharing. ⁓ My next question, what is a strong opinion that you have that you'll defend no matter what?

Right, right, yeah. Definitely, definitely that. And it doesn't have to be dogs or it can be dogs.

Dave (48:26)

⁓ I'm going to stick with a theme that we've been talking about. Maybe I could add something little different to it,

Talent is overrated.

Like we were just talking about people that I don't know if anyone idolizes me or I'm a mentor. kind of, I don't want to be seen that way. want to be seen maybe as a helpful person that have taught people, but I believe that, know, I've even made videos and have talked about this topic and there is a book actually called talent is overrated. I will to my dying day, I will not say I'm talented. I say I work.

hard and obsess over things and where everybody else might be thinking that they're working hard, they may not be ⁓ sacrificing the things that I sacrifice to get to the levels. The reason I say this, wanna, you asked me, it's because we this is a, we are dog trainers. This is a dog trainer podcast. People try to excel and be better, right?

But when somebody's expectations do not match what they are doing, that can be very difficult. And they could go, well, Dave's talented. I have some things, qualities about me that help, for sure help, that are talent-wise in my dog training. But still, I think they were developed because of the work, the work habit.

So I like to be, you like that's a big thing. You may have asked me that question and thought, well, maybe he's going to say something about e-collars or something. No, it goes much farther than that. goes like, what, what are we trying to do? and especially Leanne, when we talk about dog training and I have an animal next to me, I am obligated to do my best.

And even my best I feel is not good enough for the animal that this was my idea dog, not yours. Right? Like you didn't come out of the womb going, Oh, I want to go to a world championship in IGP. Right? Even though you're a working line dog with great genetics, you were said I'm just a dog. I chose this life for you. And now I am obligated to do what it takes for you to be the best that you can be a dog.

And that's important for me.

Lianne Shinton (51:04)

I think the phrase, the statement, talent is overrated. ⁓ That is very inspiring to people who, like me, who are like, if I work hard, I practice, I get the repetition in, then I can achieve something great. I don't need to be born with it.

Dave (51:24)

Yeah.

And I don't think, people don't really understand the repetition thing, right? And like the work and the sacrifices that I make. And it's a very, that book, if you ever get a chance to read it or the listeners find the book, talent is overrated. And here's what's something very interesting. And I know we wanted to only talk for an hour, but I want to talk about this because these are things that I believe in. In this book,

I got in an argument not too long ago with somebody saying, understand that sometimes when I'm training my dog, it's not fun.

And they're like, well, it has to be fun or you wouldn't do it. I'm like, no, you're not getting it.

because I'm training at such a high level, my criteria is so insane, that's incredibly stressful on me, right? It's not, I came home from work, I get to see my dog, now I'm gonna go out for 20 minutes and blow off steam and have fun with him. That's not what it is. Well, in this book, Talent is Overrated, they interviewed three types of musicians, which I can relate to this, right? Definitely I can relate to it. They interviewed the hobbyist.

a hobbyist violinist, and they said, do you like to practice? And that person said, of course I do. When I come home from work, I like to unwind, have a glass of wine and play my violin. And it gives me freedom. the, you know, I forget about the day and everything. Then they interviewed a semi-professional and they said, of course, most of the time I like to practice. On occasion, it gets difficult because I have to push myself where things are

difficult. And it's frustrating. But for the most part, I like to practice. Then they interviewed somebody from the London Philharmonic, a violinist. And they said, Do you like to practice? And they said, 75 % of the time, no.

And the question was why, because the pressure put on yourself to be at that level and that criteria is insanity. It really is. Right. Like if you've not been there, you don't know what I mean by insanity. You've been at high level. can, it's stressful, right? Trying to make things perfect and being constantly feeling pressure building on you to make perfection. And somebody kept arguing and saying, well, you wouldn't do it if you didn't love it.

I go, well, maybe I love it in a really perverted type of way, right? In a roundabout way that it calms me. Like the repetitive stuff calms me, right? Deep in my head. And I feel like I've done something when I get done. And I even say this to people today, know, tonight when I practice my music and my drum stuff, the first two hours are not fun.

Lianne Shinton (54:07)

Hmm.

Dave (54:25)

It is incredibly repetitive stuff for my hands that are not even that musical. And I put on a click track and I put on my headphones and I'm just listening to a metronome doing some, I'm a drummer. So I'm doing some, we call rudiments on a practice pad, not even a drum set, just on a rubber pad, straight 45 minutes, no stop. repetitive, literally a repetitive motion with my hands.

staring at the TV, watching old NFL films with my headphones on. Is it fun? No, not really. Is it a necessity? Yeah. You know, like is weightlifting always fun? Do you go to the gym, Leanne? Do you work out? Okay. It's not that fun all the time. No, yesterday I was not in the fricking mood, but I went and it was, there was nothing fun about it, but I did it.

Lianne Shinton (55:07)

I but yeah, it's no,

Yeah, even just,

just go out, walk my dog sometimes I got other stuff to do, but I got to do this and I love my dog and I got to walk, but yeah, it's, it's not always fun. And you know, when I got into dog training, I love dogs, dogs are cool. This is fun, but once hobby became work, you know, it's, it's work. Yeah.

Dave (55:21)

Right.

It gets difficult, it gets very difficult to

balance it all. And that's another thing I do five times a week. I go to the gym, like clockwork, whether like my day is really unknowingly scheduled without clocks, without reminders, without alarm clocks in the morning. It's a little bit weird. Like people, if they're, they know me well, they know what time I get up, what time I'm doing what I offer lessons between 10 and 12 that I

play with my beagle for a half hour, then I eat lunch, then I take a nap, then I go to the gym at about 1.30, then I come home, then I eat dinner at four, then I practice music, unless something I'm playing or something's different, right? It's mundane, but it's how my brain works.

Lianne Shinton (56:23)

Yeah, it's inspiring.

And I think it really shows folks like you've accomplished high level on many different facets of your life just to just get there and one how much work it is. That's amazing. Tell me about this Beagle because you've mentioned her twice.

Dave (56:42)

the beagle, you know, like, I can't say she's my favorite dog ever. I've had many, many dogs, right? ⁓ But here was the thing about her. All my pet companion dogs have always been, I don't say the word rescue. They've come from a shelter or something like that, right? I never say I rescued them, I didn't really rescue them.

I paid them some money and got a dog just like I would if I was getting a pizza, you know, it was literally the same fricking transaction. but, ⁓ and also before I go any further, all my competitive dogs, when they retired, they stay with me until their death. I, they don't go anywhere. ⁓ but my Beagle, remember being, ⁓ at a seminar either in the country out of it, it doesn't matter where I was. And my wife called me. It was when we were having our doc built.

Lianne Shinton (57:15)

you

Dave (57:37)

for our dock diving pool. And she texted me one night and said, hey, I was out there watching the contractors build a dock and there was a beagle loose going in their cars because the doors were open, the trucks and stealing breakfast tacos out and dragging them back into the woods. And I'm like, that's the coolest fucking dog I've ever heard. I'm like, that's pretty cool. And then the next day she said, yeah, it came back and was doing the same.

Lianne Shinton (57:55)

Aww.

you

Dave (58:07)

And then on the third day, she goes, Hey, I caught the beagle. And she goes, here's the deal with the beagle. Our neighbors across the street. And when I say across the street, remember I live out in the country. They're like, even though they're across the street, they're pretty far away. The dog had a tag and she goes, I called them and they said, yeah, that's our beagle. We're out ⁓ of the country on vacation. We just had her in the kennel outside kennel and she must've got out.

Lianne Shinton (58:33)

⁓

Dave (58:35)

And they and literally this is what they said. Do you want her?

And my wife asked me, goes, do you want the beagle? I'm like, hell yeah, sounds like my kind of little fiery dog, you know? And I got home and, you know, I pulled up, I know I came home from the airport and she had it in a crate in our training building and I heard it banging out there. And that night I got her out, fed her, played with her, had to keep her on leash. Hell, today I still have to keep her on leash, even though.

Lianne Shinton (58:48)

aww

Dave (59:06)

She's been in a lot of TV commercials and movies. She's not that well trained and she's a beagle. But I just remember it like that night I was watching TV. I'm like, well, let me see if she'll hang out with me and watch TV. And she cuddled up in a little ball next to me. And I'm like, okay, you're my new best buddy, you know? And I've had her a long time, man. And you know, she's 15, maybe 16 years old now, still moves around great, has some allergies. ⁓ But she's just one of those dogs, you know, it's like.

Lianne Shinton (59:27)

Hmm.

Dave (59:34)

I didn't get her because I needed, I wanted her. got her, she fell into my life when I needed her, you know?

Lianne Shinton (59:40)

What's her name?

Dave (59:42)

copper. Yep. And sometimes if you follow my Facebook pages, there'll be funny videos and posts with her doing funny things. Like a while back I had her, she was playing with a wooden dumbbell, literally just eating it like a bone. And I posted, yeah, I'm working on copper's retrieve in her hold right now. And it was just ridiculous. And I think I went to grab it and she growled at me. And people like, they're like,

Lianne Shinton (59:43)

like the fox and the hound, I think.

.

Dave (1:00:10)

You're really going to let her mow that dumbbell. Like you guys, it's not even worth the cost. Like all my friends were cracking up, but yeah, she's just one of those dogs, you know, like that has a special place in your.

Lianne Shinton (1:00:14)

you

That sounds pretty magical. Yeah, just one in a million. So my next question, what is a goal that you're quietly working towards?

Dave (1:00:35)

I am going to enter, put my foot back into French ring. And, ⁓ I, I mean, I've already had a lot of success in French ring, but I would maybe like to win a, ⁓ a cup again. ⁓ you know, from the, from a dog training standpoint, I mean, I guess I would like to maybe win a world championship. I've never done that, but also I'm not into the travel as much anymore in my life. So that I would have to do that.

Lianne Shinton (1:01:01)

Mm-hmm.

Dave (1:01:04)

And I think, so getting my feet back into French ring, training a dog and winning the cup would be doing it again would be another big thing for me. ⁓ Actually, I only won the domestic cup, which means I won, but my dog was the only dog from the United States. The cup winner was somebody else, but it was an import. So they do it like that. So I'd like to win the cup with.

Lianne Shinton (1:01:29)

Okay.

Dave (1:01:33)

a dog from the United States. So that's a goal for mine. And then, you know, I don't know where this music thing is going to take me. I would maybe go back out on the road possibly would have to be with a major act and for a lot of money. ⁓ It's a possibility. Listen, the day I decide I want to, it'll happen. It's, it's, that's how it is in my life. It's never a goal. If I say, I'm going to do that, then that's what we're going to do.

Lianne Shinton (1:02:02)

Yeah, yeah, you're, you're, you're gonna do it. I have no doubt.

Dave (1:02:06)

It's never, I

hope, it's never, I hope. I just have to go, it time? You know, I went a while with no malinois. I had a tragedy happen with my last malinois with it getting Chagas disease and that whole thing. And then my young dog, Hector, getting it. And then my malinois ended up passing away. And I just didn't feel like having another ring dog or malinois. I needed time, right? and that. ⁓ So that is a goal for me and now I got to find them.

Lianne Shinton (1:02:28)

Yeah.

Dave (1:02:34)

the malinois, right? That's not the easiest door in the world to find a ⁓ dog that genetically suited for what I want. You know that you know what that's

Lianne Shinton (1:02:42)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, I'm excited to see what you do next. And I know that you will do it. This has been such an amazing conversation too. am just like so motivated.

Dave (1:02:54)

Well, thank

you for the great questions. You did good. You did your homework. I didn't want to sit, I didn't want to go, well, yeah, here's how I feel about electric collars and the positive only trainer. I don't give a shit. Let them argue. I've got, I've got real shit I'm doing over here, you know, with my life, you know.

Lianne Shinton (1:02:58)

What you-

Yeah, and I when

you, know, you sent me a message, you're like, just don't make it another boring podcast. And I was like, challenge accepted. And it's funny. Awesome. Awesome. It's it's funny, though, how it worked out because you said that. And then I had to go to the hairdresser and she asked me the Jurassic Park question. And I'm like,

Dave (1:03:18)

Right? Yeah. And you, you did it. You did it.

Lianne Shinton (1:03:35)

This is like magic. That's the kind of questions I need to ask Dave. yeah, that's so this has been enlightening for me. ⁓ But my next question is something I'm hoping you can share for maybe new dog trainers out there, dog trainers that are burned out. If you had to rebuild your business from scratch in a new city, what's the first thing that you do?

Dave (1:03:39)

Yeah. Yep.

Okay, listen, I've been doing this for three decades. How long have you been doing it?

Lianne Shinton (1:04:10)

34 years. Yeah.

Dave (1:04:12)

Okay. The same, right.

It's changed, right? Like that the whole landscape of it has changed. And what, what is your goal as a dog trainer? There are plenty of people ⁓ that have a very good dog training business that do nothing with competitive sports, right? ⁓ And there it's no lie that social media and marketing is a lot different than it was when you and I started.

I mean, I don't, know, I w when did Facebook start? can you remember 2009, six, nine, I don't know somewhere in there. And I probably didn't give a shit about it until 2009 or 10, you know, um, you, you and I, uh, well, I actually don't know how old you are and you didn't tell me and I'm not going to ask, but you look a lot younger than I am. Oh,

Lianne Shinton (1:04:50)

Yeah, 2006, I think. Yeah.

51, 51 today.

Dave (1:05:09)

my god, girl, I had you at like 30. ⁓ so like we knew when there was not iPhones, right? Like people, people wonder about how come there's no photos of you back where I'm like,

Lianne Shinton (1:05:11)

⁓ thank you.

Yeah, yeah, yellow pages, newspapers.

Dave (1:05:25)

Cause we didn't have freaking iPhones, right? Nobody was walking around with a camera. If someone was taking a picture, they had to go get that shit developed and blah, blah, blah. Right? So it wasn't like there were a hundred photos. Even when I was in the music industry, I didn't have a lot of stuff because people weren't dealing. Now I have an Instagram just for my music. Within two years, I've got like hundreds of photos and pictures. We didn't have that. So

Lianne Shinton (1:05:39)

No, no.

Dave (1:05:51)

And I don't, I have my own views on the marketing and the social media, but I think to be relative and to be honest, I backed out of social media. lot of the younger people don't know who I am and I'm okay with that. Like I said, I feel I'm in the twilight of my years. I think I can get to the grave without having to change a heck of a lot in my life financially, hopefully. ⁓ But you have to probably figure out some stuff for social media.

That being said, there's plenty of people, and you know this, and the listeners know this, that have huge social media accounts with tons and hundreds of thousands and millions of followers that can't snap a leash on a dog.

So that has to be in balance, you know, right? Like, there are, some people may still put me in that whole thing, well Dave is a content creator, not as much anymore, but what no one will ever say is Dave's a content creator, but he can't train a dog. Nobody will ever say that. That will never come out of anybody. And I have the credentials to prove it, right? Like that always remains important to me.

starting a new business, man, a new dog trainer in a new town. It's hard land. Cause I broke that mold. I didn't do all the go to the park, do the demos, do all that. I didn't do, I never once had a demo dog.

I'm like demo dog here. Here's a video of me at the world championship. There's my demo. What the fuck you want me to, I ain't bringing him out to do a place command for you. You know? So like I broke a lot of the molds because I don't, I never did that stuff. I did what marketing I had to do. Like this would be a better quote. know what? Leanne, what would you tell ⁓ a new dog trainer in a new town?

Lianne Shinton (1:07:28)

You ⁓

You

Yeah.

⁓ I, the first one thing that to do, gosh, ⁓ there's so many. I, I have to say that I've been doing this for a long time. I've been training docs for a while. And the thing that shifted for me was when I got into modu-o-ring and I started applying what I learned in modu-o-ring to my pet doc training.

and there's so much correlation there. And that was huge for me. The calming techniques, the state of mind that the dog was in during certain exercises, I was able to connect that better. But who knows if I would have seen that when I was 17, I might've been like, I don't know what's going on. I might've been ready to understand that more. So yeah.

Dave (1:08:36)

Right.

So

I'm going to add to that because honestly, I was going to say something like that. I have a very good friend who is a dog trainer in Austin, very does very well. Great guy, my age. And he actually bought his business is the current business, Fidelio dogs, Donovan Miller, giving them a shout out there. Fidelio dogs. He bought the business from a student that I had when I was teaching at triple crown. So

I met Donovan through mountain bike racing. kind of a lot like I am, really just down to earth, nice guy, quiet. And he knew who I was and I didn't know who he was when we were racing bikes. For probably two years, we were on the same enduro circuit around the South, whether it Arkansas, New Mexico.

And I didn't really know who he was, because I don't follow a lot of other dog trainers, especially I don't follow pet dog trainers in Austin. ⁓ And one time he had a Fidelio dog trainer shirt on when we were racing together. Matter of fact, we were on the podium together, because we're in the same age bracket. And I go, Fidelio dogs? Isn't that Steve's old company? And he goes, yeah, I bought it from him. And I go, wow, interesting. He used to be one of my students back in the day at Triple Crown. He goes,

Yeah, I know you're Dave Croyer. And I go, and I'm go, you know, I'm like, what I respected about him is he never talked to me about dogs. He never came up to me or anything. And we came very close friends. But one thing about Donovan was he'd call me in the middle of the week. He's like, dude, I'm freaking out, man. I'm burnt out. I'm not going anywhere with my skill as a dog trainer. I'm like Donovan, because you're not pushing the limits.

You're doing sit down, play, stay every day. Right. I'm like, he goes, I know, but I don't know what to do. I said, the way you're going to become better is when you pick a performance sport. don't care what performance it is. Right. And then you say, I want to win in that venue.

Lianne Shinton (1:10:36)

Mm.

Dave (1:10:52)

Then you're going to have to start really analyzing your dog training. This guy came from, he graduated from, that, is it a place called national canine? Is that place to you went there? Okay. Still there. He graduated from there and he said, you know, we didn't really use food and training there. Right. So like, and he, he's part of my website still today. He's a subscriber and he goes, all that stuff you do, we never learn.

Lianne Shinton (1:11:02)

I went there. Yeah, it's still there. Yeah.

No, not back.

Dave (1:11:22)

And I'm like, well, how did, how, how were you released into the free world? So I go, well, and he goes, you know, I don't use food and he's a good trainer. Like the dogs aren't suppressed or anything weird. He's like very talented trainer, but I'm like, but dude, what if that dog was a good student? And when I say good student, genetically nice, outgoing, good nerves took food, good food drive. I'm like, do you think you could accelerate the learning a little bit if you used food?

Lianne Shinton (1:11:27)

Hahaha.

Dave (1:11:52)

Now, what if you use the secondary reinforcer, which we know can accelerate learning when used correct. I'm like, and he would go, okay, I'm going to try for one week. I'd give him a bag of build Jack, you know, at the racetrack and go take this home, roll it up and train. And he would just, life would get in the way and he couldn't continue. And then he's like, well, I want to do a sport. I'm like, Donovan, you're too busy. You won't be able to do it. But I go, why don't you do something like nose work? mean,

It ain't that fucking hard. You don't have to devote your whole life to nose work. I'm like, you're going to learn some real interesting things. And, ⁓ he always gave it a good shot, couldn't stick with it. And I wouldn't yell at him. like, well, that's not priority, right? In your life. I get it. But what you can't do that, can call me and rant to any day of the week and I'll listen to you cause you're my friend, but you know the answer.

Lianne Shinton (1:12:22)

you

Dave (1:12:47)

Progress your dog training. And one of the best ways to do that is be do it in a performance venue. That's how you get better. You want to beat me? Get better than me. If I want to beat Ivan, get better than Ivan, right?

Lianne Shinton (1:12:54)

something.

And I wanted to add too, because it's inspiring listening to you and your energy and your, I'm going to, I'm going to win at this. I think that if I do something with a dog training business, I'm a new dog trainer, put that kind of energy into learning how to coach people, learning how to run a business and lead a team and training the dogs and try and do what Dave does for those.

areas and you will kick butt.

Dave (1:13:39)

Yeah, I think it's just to, if anything, take away from this podcast, which is really fun, by the way, you did great. Once again, with the questions, nothing is never, there's no option. When I decide I'm doing something, it's like, well, okay. It's if it's when is it going to happen? When am I going to, and a lot of, if I get new clients here, especially in the sport world, I, and I hate this answer. Even when I go to seminars, I go, what's your goal?

Lianne Shinton (1:13:45)

Thank you, thank you.

Dave (1:14:08)

They go, well, to do the best that I can do for my dog. Nope.

That means nothing to me.

give me a true goal, right? You know, and let the only thing that could maybe hold you back is possibly if the dog's not genetically cut out to go to a top level. But you know, somebody will show up to me with a really nice dog that I feel can be a top level dog. And they're like, well, you know, I will see what I can go. And I look at them like, with that look a dog gives you when they're confused. I'm like, what? No, we're fucking going to win. That like,

Lianne Shinton (1:14:45)

see. Yeah.

Dave (1:14:49)

I don't even know what you're talking about. If you're training with me, the goal is to win. We're going to start with, you're going to win at the club trials here. Then you're going to, then I'm going to take you into a regional championship and you're going to win that. You know, these are people, this is all new for me. Like I just wanted to get a BH or a Brevet. I'm like, no, no, no, no, that's, that's already happening. That's going to, I'm not thinking about that. That's just some shit that's getting in the way of our other goal. Right.

Well, I want to make money a ring thing. No, that's, that's going to happen. That that's not like your goal. Your goal is, you know, obviously I've got to look at the person and look at the whole package and go, is the dog capable? Do I think this person is capable physically and mentally? And I'm going, no, no, no, no, no level three. That's just some pesky shit that gets in the way. Right.

Lianne Shinton (1:15:39)

Yeah,

yeah, it would be so inspiring to train under you and to work with you. I'm sure, I'm sure, but.

Dave (1:15:46)

It's not always fun though. I, but

I'm not mean. I'm like, I don't feel like I mean, I'm doing it like, because they're like, I know where we have to be mentally to get there. Right. And I'm very, this is how it's going to be. It's a little bit intense, right? Like don't come to me with an excuse. Don't come to me with anything because if I'm out here with you,

And I always tell people, like, you realize when I say this, it's not, listen, I'm, I don't have a lot of damn money, especially nowadays with everything, you know, ⁓ dog trade, if there's a trillionaire dog trainer, let me meet them. But, ⁓ I will always tell people I don't need your money. Even though I do need the money, right? Like, I, like I said, I am not a wealthy person. I would rather.

Go, no, if we're not on the same page with something with a goal, pay somebody else because you're not going to enjoy it. And I'm going to like, because I will lose sleep over you. Anyone that's trained with me knows I will lose sleep for you.

That's a big burden on me, right? Like I will do all the thinking that you can't do, you're not capable of doing. You know, even back in the day when I used to coach people ⁓ for large championships, I would charge a lot of money and they wouldn't even, wouldn't sometimes it sounds weird. You'll get it, but some, know, if they weren't a good dog trainer, maybe they bought an already trained dog, we'd go to a championship and I would potty and walk their dogs for them.

Lianne Shinton (1:16:58)

Yeah.

Dave (1:17:26)

Cause I'm trying to control something, right? I'm controlling something every step of the way. And I know if I have a novice handler at a championship, even when they go potty that dog, they're going to do nervous things.

Lianne Shinton (1:17:40)

Yeah, yeah, I got you. Yep. yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave (1:17:42)

You know what I'm saying? Like

I'm going to take the burden off of you and I'm going to put it on me. But we have to have the same goal if we're doing a competitive thing. And it's okay if you come to me and say, don't, I just want to, I don't care about goal. ⁓ I just, whatever. That's fine too. But once you cross that line and say, okay, we're going to do this. Or I go, you know, you're capable more of that. And this dog is too. So are you on board? Okay.

Lianne Shinton (1:17:50)

Yeah.

Yeah, I like.

Dave (1:18:12)

B-H-I-G-P-1 Brevet Ring 1, that's nothing. Those are just things that are in our way to get where we gotta go.

Lianne Shinton (1:18:22)

Wow, yeah, that is amazing. I mean, some of these things you talk about, have you go potty the dog so that the person can focus and not put the nervous energy on the dog. Those are things we trip over and we're like, hey, maybe you should walk her because I'm freaking out right now, but you already know it and it's part of your plan because you've been there, done that.

Dave (1:18:32)

Yeah, that's important.

Yep.

Yep. mean, like there had been that certain person that I would potty the dog, I wouldn't let him feed it. I wouldn't let much interaction go. Even when we'd had to train, like, you know, when you were in Russia, you had your training days. I'm like, I will get the dog from the car and I will bring it to you. Now remember, this person bought an already trained IGP-3 dog and they had literally never trained a dog before. So they were.

going to championships because they could, because the dog was good. But I'm like, okay, we're gonna have to do this a little bit differently, right? And just trust me when I tell you this, right? Because I don't want your nervous energy interacting with this dog. I want it to be this calm thing that I can provide for the dog. Where the dog goes, nothing, everything's normal. Dave's here, he's cool, everything's cool. Nothing weird's happening.

Lianne Shinton (1:19:15)

interesting.

Yeah.

Interesting. So we have gone over the hour, but I do have one more question if that's okay. Okay. Now, if this is too much of a question, you can't think of an answer, then I'll have a backup. ⁓ But I've got two. My first one, if you can answer it, this will just be the last question. If you could relive one day of your life, which would you choose?

Dave (1:19:43)

We can do it for the birthday girl.

Wow.

I've had many good days.

Lianne Shinton (1:20:12)

good, that is excellent to hear.

Dave (1:20:14)

But

you know, okay, I'm gonna answer it, but it's not the answer you want. I don't think I've had the best day yet.

Lianne Shinton (1:20:21)

⁓

Dave (1:20:24)

I am seeking the best day, whatever that is. And maybe that's why I wake up every morning and go, what's out there for me today?

Lianne Shinton (1:20:28)

Wow.

Dave (1:20:34)

I think that day still can come.

Lianne Shinton (1:20:36)

Awesome, awesome. Wow, is there anything else that you would like to add today?

Dave (1:20:44)

No, I'm just so happy that you had great questions and it's your birthday and you look amazing. Like, I thought you were in your young 30s. So go out and have a drink or do whatever.

Lianne Shinton (1:20:51)

Thank you, thank you.

Thank you, thank you.

Yeah, we're going to

we're going out to have a steak tonight. So I'm excited. Thank you. Thank you. This has been such a great birthday having you on my podcast and having you take me to the next level with my podcast by asking better questions. So yeah, I hope the listeners will enjoy this. Thank you so much, Dave. I really appreciate you.

Dave (1:21:08)

Thank you.

You are welcome

and thank you for everybody listening to it. and by the way, one ⁓ cheap plug here. My website, DaveCroyer.com, videos, go check them out. 600 training videos, IGP, ring, nodes work, blah, blah, blah. I have to do my one shameless plug there.

Lianne Shinton (1:21:22)

Yes, thank you.

and canine headquarters where that's located in Austin. Austin, cool. I'll have to take a visit there. Awesome. All right, well, thank you, Dave. Thank you everybody for listening again. I'm Leanne from Automation Docs and have a great day.

Dave (1:21:39)

Yeah. How do Texas Austin? Yeah. North Austin.

Bye guys.