Lianne Shinton (00:01)

Hey everybody and welcome. So I'm Leanne Chinton from Automation Dogs. Welcome to my podcast. I'm a dog trainer and I commonly talk with dog trainers and experts who can help dog trainers. And today I have the pleasure of interviewing again, Michael Harvey from Canine Coach in Sarasota, Florida. Welcome Mike.

Michael (00:22)

Hey, how you doing?

Lianne Shinton (00:23)

I'm very good. Thank you. so there was one thing you were on my podcast, ⁓ a week ago, I think it aired and there was one thing that really stood out. Someone said to me was I had, I'd never thought about it, how a dog, you know, would resource guard, ⁓ human. And this was just a non-dog trainer person who had listened to the podcast and you just gave such a wonderful.

human analogy. It's like having a personal masseuse. And of course the dog is going to be like, this is my private masseuse. I don't want anybody to take him from me. So that was very helpful for people to understand that perspective.

Michael (00:56)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, you know, when you listen to other dog trainers, always have a pretty like, ⁓ that makes sense, But I use that a lot with with the people when I consult them in it and make them realize that you're you're ineffectively you think that you're calming the dog down, but you're actually praising the dog for being in that state.

And, you know, sometimes like, you know, with fidget toys, like people just use their dog fidget toy. You know what I mean? And just kind of like the dog's like, Hey, why are you stopping? It's just like this constant vicious cycle of the dog saying, Hey, don't stop. Don't stop. Okay, I'll keep on pet. Yeah.

Lianne Shinton (01:53)

Exactly, exactly. And it's unconscious. We don't even realize we're petting them half the time. So that was a good analogy. Now today we wanted to shift a little bit because you and I were talking maybe a month ago about burnout and how common it is for business owners to experience burnout, especially dog trainers. And you had mentioned that you had experienced burnout and found

Michael (01:59)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Lianne Shinton (02:21)

a solution for it.

Michael (02:24)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think I was like eight years into it. So it's kind of around 2009, 2010. I started in 2002. We I went to National Canine. And then two years later, I went to Sydney, said, or no limitations, what it was called back in the day. And then, you know, I started getting busy. I, you know, I wasn't working the second job. I was doing it full time.

Lianne Shinton (02:26)

So.

Michael (02:53)

And I was just getting clients, you know, back in like 2010 in Sarasota, I was the only one that was really had a name for dealing with the hard cases, the aggression, the fear, the anxiety. And I was starting to get clients that, you know, no matter how much time I spent with them in each session and told them the next session, it was like Groundhog Day. You know what I mean?

Lianne Shinton (03:22)

Hmm.

Michael (03:23)

And, you know, ⁓ I really kind of, when I started getting really into the dog training thing, you know, one of the things is I care about the job itself. When people hire me, I want to help them fix the issues. And when you see them not doing it, it starts to become very, very frustrating. And it started ⁓ my behavior towards them started coming out like, you know, like, could be really harsh.

because I was just like, you you're saying the same thing over and over again. So it's like, how many times can I say this nicely or word it in a way for you to understand? And I was really starting to like, I doing the right thing if I'm feeling like this all the time? And I was dating a yoga instructor and we met ⁓ after work one time and she's like, you okay? And I'm like, yeah, just, you know, rough couple of days.

And I told her and she's like, she's like, got a book for you. And the next time we met, she gave me this book called the four agreements and put a little like in the first page, like hope, hope your journey to wellness, you it's a quick read. I, you know, I actually, ⁓ when we planned on doing this, I reread it. It took me like a half a day. And, it just put a lot of things in the perspective of, of what I'm dealing with, you know,

Lianne Shinton (04:41)

Mm-hmm.

Michael (04:49)

If this was job was easy, I'd be out of a job. And, and, you know, I don't know how you want to like, because you read it right. Do you want to go by chapter by chapter or.

Lianne Shinton (04:53)

Mm.

Yeah, I guess like maybe we could start with, I listened to it because I don't think I've read a book in a hundred years. Maybe we could start with the name of the book. We're gonna go through it and kind of how it helped you and I'll give of course my take on it. I found it very interesting to read about the author. So Don Miguel,

Michael (05:14)

I get it.

Lianne Shinton (05:30)

Ruiz, I probably butchered his name, but he was born in a very rural area of Mexico. And he was born to a family of healers, a shaman, and I think a Toltec healer, and then went on to ⁓ medical school, which, you know, it's aligned, but it's not more

Michael (05:56)

Yeah.

Lianne Shinton (05:58)

not so natural and spiritual. It's medical school. And I think that he went on to medical school, but then had a car accident and a near death experience at the early age of 20.

Michael (06:12)

Okay.

Well, you really researched some more than I did.

Lianne Shinton (06:16)

I did, and I always find those pivotal moments in our life, if we're open to them, it can be, you can do such a shift. And I was like, okay, yeah, he had a near death experience. But then when I read he was only 20 when he had a near death experience, I was like, that's early. ⁓ Like, we're not even like grown up yet. And then he ended up shifting, I guess, back to, ⁓ I think, becoming a Toltec healer.

Michael (06:24)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Lianne Shinton (06:46)

and writing this book. That's what I found out.

Michael (06:51)

Yeah, so when you read the book, the part of it is all the chapters work synergistically. know what I mean? So the first one is be impeccable with your word. And it means don't sugar coat what you're saying or don't say things that you don't mean. And

That in itself, like, you know, when, when early in my career, if there was something that I got stumped on, I was like, I'd be honest, I'd be like, you know, I have a Swiss army knife. I'm like, I usually approach it if one thing's not working, I'll go to the next. You know what I mean? I'm just honest with people. like, you know, you know, these cases are tough to do. You just got to dot your I's and cross your T's in the process.

And it goes on to say, ⁓ it talked about like relationships with kids and stuff. you say something out of character to your kid, like, did you remember where the mom was frustrated and the child was singing and she said, sound horrible and the girl never sang again. You know what mean? And so, ⁓

Lianne Shinton (08:14)

Yes.

Michael (08:17)

It taught you how to talk to the people that are in front of you without getting them frustrated through your frustration, right? So it goes by that being the most important one. Go ahead.

Lianne Shinton (08:26)

Yeah, and it

I was.

I was just going to read that first agreement. So like you said, it's be impeccable with your word. Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using your words to speak against yourself or gossip about others. And I know for me, when I look in the mirror, I'll think bad things about myself. I will definitely find myself gossiping.

Michael (08:51)

That's another one.

Lianne Shinton (09:02)

and people be sending me Facebook messages or something and it's funny, but also, you know, it was really good to shine a light on that and be like, it's not healthy.

Michael (09:07)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And like ⁓ the gossip thing, like you obviously met Bob Jarvis from National Canine. And one of the things he said when you're in business, he's like, you don't talk bad about your competition in any business. And, you know, I'm sure people that have worked with me on other trainers and stuff like that, just because the, you know, personalities didn't clash or whatever. But

Lianne Shinton (09:23)

Yeah.

Michael (09:42)

When I hear of another dog trainer, just usually say, I've never seen them work. I'm like, but I'm pretty familiar with what their technique is. And this is why I think this wouldn't work for you, but I wouldn't say, they're a horrible trainer. You what I mean? That's just, you shouldn't be doing that, right? The glass apart.

Lianne Shinton (10:00)

Yeah.

Yeah, I think too, like you'd mentioned earlier about how, you know, it can be very frustrating when you're trying to help someone with their dog and you keep repeating yourself and it gets very sad and very frustrating. we develop like, ⁓ I mean, doctors have to develop this too.

not the bedside manner, but where you protect yourself and it's almost like you're having just a normal conversation when you're dealing with a gunshot victim or something. And that's kind of how we have to have that thick skin. But sometimes it gets too thick and we start having anger or frustration towards our clients. And yeah, we...

Michael (10:34)

Right, right.

Yeah,

and it's because you know the dogs capable of doing what you're asking them to do. And that's the you know, like I became a dog trainer because I love dogs. You know, I mean, I, you know, they're one of the best pets you could have. You know, my my opinion. ⁓ And, you know, I'm always looking down the road like I don't want to see this dog bite somebody and then put into the system and then have to be put down, you know, like the

Lianne Shinton (10:59)

Mm-hmm.

Michael (11:17)

the effect that that would have on their family. You know what mean? I wouldn't call it rejection, but like that failure that you take on the weight of, you know, and that's where the second agreement comes in. Don't take things personally. You know what mean? You want me to go into that chapter?

Lianne Shinton (11:39)

Yeah, I can read what I have here. Don't take anything personally. What others say and do is a reflection of their own reality, not yours. When you don't take things personally, you avoid unnecessary suffering.

Michael (11:53)

And that's what I was doing. I was taking everything so personally. When I got to that chapter is where like I was like, why am I doing this to myself? You know what I mean? And you just learn how to, like when those things, like it just happened to me this week, third lesson. And I said, I was saying the same thing I was saying last lesson. And I looked at the person and I was like, look, you have.

Lianne Shinton (12:05)

Yeah.

Michael (12:23)

to start doing what I'm asking you to do or this is going to keep on happening. You just got to lay it out matter of fact and you gave them the advice. Do they take it? If they do, great. If not, can't. ⁓ The fourth chapter, always do your best. If you've known you've done those things, then you shouldn't have to take it personally.

Lianne Shinton (12:46)

Yeah, I definitely get the racing mind at night, you know, things like that where I'm worried about it and I, know, and they're probably at home, like not thinking about it. It's not even on their mind, but yeah, we take things so personally. So that was, that was a big one that stood out to me.

Michael (13:04)

Yeah. So ⁓ once I started doing that, like, ⁓ you know, I, ⁓ I started feeling better about my position. You know what I mean? And, ⁓ you know, I got back into, I got to that, that, ⁓ that desire back, you know what I mean? Instead of like getting the phone call, like, here's another aggression case. she's a senior citizen. You know I mean? Like,

And like I want them to like that stage of life, they need a good pet. You know what I mean? But they haven't had a pet in a while. You know, those are all those things that you got to take into consideration when you're teaching these individuals.

Lianne Shinton (13:52)

Yeah, yeah, and it's their reality too. It is, you know, in our reality so different. So yeah, it's not the same.

Michael (14:01)

You know, yeah, and it's like, ⁓ my last thought, I've never had a dog like this. So they've been in this habit of having a dog that never had any issues and don't realize that there's a lot of work to be done to get them to be the dog that they used to, you know, are used to a customer having.

Lianne Shinton (14:21)

Yes. And then do you want to go into the third agreement?

Michael (14:25)

Sure, that's done soon, right?

Lianne Shinton (14:27)

Yeah, don't make assumptions.

Find the courage to ask questions and express what you really want. Clear communication prevents misunderstandings, drama and conflict. Yes.

Michael (14:42)

Yeah, so that goes to like, you know, asking them the questions like, hey, are you doing this? you doing that? You know. ⁓

If you know finding your like don't assume that they like like they might have a really bad schedule at home. And you know, because I have like a command checklist that I hand out is kind of like their syllabus for the program. It says practice three to five times a day 1015 minutes per session. Well, they might not be able to do three to five at 1015 minutes. I'm like, OK, that's great. Just be five. Right. You know, don't assume that they're going to be able to implement

the time needed and make sure that they don't start to like, I didn't do it yesterday. And then they start getting snowballed into like, oh, it starts becoming insurmountable. And then you've got to say, Hey, take a step back, maybe do five minutes, maybe practice without the dog for a little bit and kind of get your movements down. You know what I mean? That way, when you're working with a dog, it's not frustrating you because they don't see the mistakes they're making.

I mean, like, I'm sure you've dealt with like a husband and wife and you're sitting there showing them how to do things. And then, you know, the wife starts out and the husband's doing the armchair quarterback. And I'm like, you're going to be next and you're going to do the same thing. And sure enough, he gets up and like, Hey, what happened, man? When you're watching it, it's totally different. But when you got your fur baby at the end of the leash, the anxiety just amplified.

Lianne Shinton (15:52)

Yeah.

Yes.

Ha ha.

You

Michael (16:20)

And you think you're going to be able to do a good job, but it's not as easy as it You know, we make it look out to you because we've been doing it for a while and we've, you know, worked with people who have been doing it for a while and learned from them. You know what I mean?

Lianne Shinton (16:33)

Yes, I think this ⁓ agreement made me think about when I read a text message or an email from a client too. think that when we read something, yeah, we read.

Michael (16:43)

That was a good work.

we put our

emotions into it because if it's like short and you know what I mean? Like are they mad? What did I do? You know?

Lianne Shinton (16:49)

Yeah.

Exactly.

And I think it's normal to almost read angry, like read like they're yelling. And then we have to make a decision. Do we text them back? Really, they're just being maybe they're being sarcastic. But that's where don't assume and maybe make a phone call to try and figure out exactly what's going on and ask questions.

Michael (17:16)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Lianne Shinton (17:22)

instead of assuming and just coming at that phone call, like, I'm just going to give you a solution and an answer based on this little text I read, maybe asking more questions and listening, because you probably are assuming the wrong information.

Michael (17:36)

Right, right. And then they're like, no, I never thought that. Well, I read your text and like, like, it's the same thing with relationships outside of dog training. You know, ⁓ marriages, boyfriend, girlfriend, it's the same thing. And, you know, I started planning to everything like, you know, my daughter, like, like, Hey, did you hear what I said? Do you understand what I said?

So that way later or the next day I'm like, we had this conversation yesterday. You know, I told you this and then you could just chalk it up to being a 12 year old girl. You know what I mean?

Lianne Shinton (18:15)

Yeah, I was talking with Dave Croyer recently about competing and how stressful and how hard it is to compete. And after a competition, I'd come out and be like, I lost a half a point or I lost four points. Now, if I said that to you, you'd be like, where'd you lose the points, Leanne? And I'd be like on the retrieve because that's my life. But when my boyfriend, Brett, asks me,

You know, I come out of the trial, I call him, won, you know, we're going to the nationals. It's going to be great. I got a, you know, one, one 99 and a half. And he says, where'd you lose that half a point? Leanne? I'm assuming that he's judging me and he can't say that. Where does, if you asked me that question, I'd be like, yeah, on the retrieve. That's my life. But yeah, I'm assuming that he's.

Michael (18:48)

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, he was just asking

like what what what? Yeah, he was just asking what where was the Apple point deducted? That's all. He was asking for information, but he wasn't being critical. He wasn't being critical.

Lianne Shinton (19:11)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's all and he wasn't judging.

Yeah. And that's why I think the lesson for a lot of us too, when we compete is we don't train together. you know, I think even, Dave Carr was saying, I have to have an Olympian on my podcast too, but even in like the Olympic, ⁓ like the place where they all kind of are, ⁓ Olympic village, think, ⁓ spouses, I don't think are allowed because it just adds an extra layer of, of

Michael (19:46)

Yeah.

Lianne Shinton (19:51)

awkwardness and stress, pressure. Yeah.

Michael (19:53)

Yeah, yeah,

I bet. I bet.

Lianne Shinton (19:57)

Yeah, yeah, you need like peace. hopefully that related to the third one of don't make assumptions. ⁓ And in personal but in related to dog training. But that was one that stood out to me as like, I'm assuming that you're judging me and that you're disappointed in me.

Michael (20:03)

Yes, yes.

Right, right, right. Because of the comfortability of the relationship.

Lianne Shinton (20:23)

Exactly, exactly. You could ask me, where'd you lose the points, Leanne? And I'd be like, well, of course, you know. But if my mom asked me that, I'd be like, she's disappointed and now I'm grounded. I don't know what it is, but you're too close. You can't ask me that.

Michael (20:35)

⁓ Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it's funny.

Lianne Shinton (20:45)

So.

Michael (20:45)

because

you're like and that's where you're like you're looking at the reflection of yourself like because you're the one thinking that you're you know what i mean you're the one taking that personally

Lianne Shinton (20:52)

Mm,

yes, yes. Never blame, never blame flirty either.

Michael (20:58)

Yeah, and like. ⁓

Right. Um, I used to do the same thing with Missy. Like, uh, we go through a routine and I'd be like, we just worked on this. And then I'd have to like, look back at what I did. I was like, Oh, that was my cue that I missed. You know I mean? You assume that she knows it and she's going to do it, but you know, if we didn't work that trick earlier and she hasn't done that trick in a week or something like that, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Lianne Shinton (21:31)

Yeah, so this one can definitely be applied. Don't make assumptions. ⁓ So the next one, the fourth agreement is, I really loved this one. Always do your best. Your best will change from moment to moment, but consistently do your best helps you avoid self judgment and regret.

Michael (21:32)

Definitely.

Yeah, and that like what I just said about messy that I do my best to prepare her for that moment. Did I do my best to the client to prepare them for the Jumping and difficulty from lesson to lesson. You know what mean? And talks about like, you know, you're going to be sick, you know you're going to be not feeling well and you still gotta.

achieve what you can and then don't make assumptions, you know, of like, Hey, I'm not feeling well. Or, you know, I didn't get any good, didn't get a good night's last night. You know what I mean? And, you know, making sure that the client knows that then you don't have that like, I did a horrible job today. You could always say, Hey, let's redo this. You know, I just wasn't my ad brain fog today.

which happens a lot.

Lianne Shinton (22:47)

I think there was something in that chapter about do your best, but don't over do that best. Am I remembering correctly? Cause I think that stood out to me because sometimes I'll overdo it. And then I'm like, I have nothing left.

Michael (22:56)

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. And that's where another part of the burnout comes in because you're trying, you when I was in my infancy of this, you know, it's just like I was in my mid thirties, you know, a lot more energy, energy, you know what I mean? ⁓

That's where I had to start to realize that I'm trying to get these people to do something. Maybe they can't achieve it and I have to back out of it, know, like change the approach to them so they could grasp it and move forward. You know what I mean? So like you said, if I'm sitting there trying to do my best and that one lesson and trying to cram it, maybe they can't absorb what I'm trying to get them to achieve. You know,

You know, dog behavior, like behavior problems aside, like, ⁓ I assumed that everybody would want a dog like mine, like messy, you know, like off leash on command. And some people don't care about that. You know I mean? So why am I pushing them to do something? And then I'm getting frustrated because they're not doing it. They just do not. And they're like, I just need my dog to not jump on people and stay on their mat when I answer the door and that's it. You know,

Lianne Shinton (24:24)

Yeah, yeah, I definitely that one spoke to me like you always want to do your best. ⁓ And I think that that is is so important for when you're working with your staff when you're working with the clients when you're working with your dog or the dogs, always do your best, be your best for everybody. And the one that when he dug in a little bit on that and said, you know, don't overdo your best.

That's where I think it really stood out to me, like I said, because I would just expend all my energy. I just physically was everything was all I had. I had nothing left. And then the next client or coming home to my family, I got nothing left. That's the burnout right there. think that fourth agreement was the one that like really hit home for me because I'm like, I got to tone it down a little bit here.

Michael (24:58)

Yeah.

You're depleting the reserves.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Lianne Shinton (25:23)

because I'm not a balanced best.

Michael (25:26)

Right. And that's where the don't take things personally thing comes in too, because you were taking it personally to do your best. And you didn't have like, you know what I mean? You didn't, you didn't know how to self-regulate that. You know what I mean? You're like, oh, I'm doing, I'm depleting myself. then you're still getting like the same results. You know what I mean? And that, that starts to wear on you.

Lianne Shinton (25:42)

Yeah.

Yeah. And there's some tough cases too. Like some, I talked to a dog trainer the other day and you know, this dog can't even go outside. He won't go to the bathroom outside. Like this dog is a mess. When he goes outside, he tries to drag the little old lady back to the house. And it's like, it's consuming this dog trainer. Like all the other clients are getting this and this one lady is getting like everything he's got. ⁓ so could see where that could lead to burnout.

Michael (26:20)

Yeah.

Yeah, like Rosie that we when we did the one zoom call, I showed you Rosie and I had her for like three extra weeks. And like, like there's like right at the three week mark, I called him. I was like, Hey, I need a break. Let's let's send her home for a little bit. See how things go. And then I took her back for a week and a half right before they went back up to DC. And I totally needed it I was giving her everything.

Lianne Shinton (26:30)

⁓ yeah, the little white fluff ball.

Yeah.

Michael (26:52)

I mean, I was just constantly like, okay, what can I do to get her out of the next layer of her shell today? And I was putting all that into her and I had to save stuff for the other dogs I'm working with, my own personal dogs.

Lianne Shinton (27:08)

I've used that technique too and inadvertently learned from it, giving the dog success where I would be like, I've got this board and train here, I'm gonna send them home because they're at the end of their board and train. And then when they come back for boarding, the dog's like dragging to me and like, it's Aunt Leanne, I'm at my second home. And I'm like, my gosh, like this is the same dog, but they...

Michael (27:08)

A new dog.

Lianne Shinton (27:36)

I don't know, it's just something in them. go back home and then they come back to me and they trust and everything that we worked on, it's just magic. And that was a trick.

Michael (27:46)

Yeah, yeah,

this guy's

Lianne Shinton (27:48)

that I really like learned from, because the dog told me. ⁓ So I love that where, you you may have to find that solution, send them home, get a break. But then when they come back, they trust you more. They're like, I got this. Yeah.

Michael (28:02)

Recharge. Yep.

Yeah. There was like, uh, like when I do boarding trains and it's an anxiety case, like, we, can we, uh, come meet, see the dog? And for a while I was like, I'm like, I don't think it's a good idea because, you know, I might take some steps back if you come and then, you know, uh, I kind of let go a little bit. I'm like, yeah, sure. Come. then like,

the visit actually helped the progress. Because the dog was like, oh, I'm not staying with you for the rest of my life. OK. My other family is still in the picture. And for whatever reason, it helped that the rest of the boarding train go lot smoother. You know what mean?

Lianne Shinton (28:39)

Yes.

Yeah,

yeah, and that is a good one that a lot of stock traders stick to. We just don't want the owner. But I used to work in veterinary emergency and critical care and people would come in and visit their dogs when the dogs were in the hospital and everything was fine. No one blew up. If anything, maybe it probably helped, you know, them have their mom and their dad and their blanket and their things that they knew. yeah, maybe being a bit more open to that might ⁓

be a solution to actually help.

Michael (29:19)

Yeah, it's, you know, every dog's different and every situation is different. You know, you know, if you don't have the, you know, what Rosie, she was three years at a breeder and I can, this is where I have to assume from what I saw her behavior that she was just isolated in a crate for three years. And I had to approach it that way.

Lianne Shinton (29:22)

Mm-hmm.

Michael (29:49)

And the owners only had her for about a month before they came to me. So there wasn't like this strong connection. Whereas the dog would have been like, my God, you're taking me home. taking me home. But if it's, you know, a dog that was seven years old and they've had since a puppy and they waited seven years to, to actually change and do something about it. And they wanted to like, well,

Lianne Shinton (30:03)

Yeah.

Michael (30:15)

No, that would be a situation where I'm like, I don't think it's a good idea. Let me just get through this and you'll have your dog back in a better situation. You know what I mean?

Lianne Shinton (30:20)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that one of the big takeaways that I took with this book and it just happened by accident, I guess, because I knew we were doing the podcast. I kept the knowledge I learned from the book with me. A lot of times I read a book and I'm like, I'm going to implement everything. This is amazing. And then I move on to the next book or the next podcast. And I'm like, this is great.

And I didn't take the time to put in the work and make this a lifestyle like I have done with ⁓ James Clear's Atomic Habits. I read that once a year minimum. I live that book. This is another book that I'm gonna have to practice as a way of life because I was...

Michael (30:51)

Yeah.

They have

a little mini version.

Lianne Shinton (31:17)

Okay.

Michael (31:18)

Like it's like a pocket size. My dad has it sitting in his bathroom. So every time I went to the bathroom, I'm like, oh, my dad has a mini version of the book I love.

Lianne Shinton (31:26)

You

Did he get the book because of you?

Michael (31:28)

Yeah, and

it. No, like he had it, because he's in he's in addiction specialist and stuff like that. He was, you know, early in his life he had addiction issues and now he's like a sponsor and he works. He just went back to school in the 70s to get certified to be. When it when these people come out of the 28 day or whatever 30 days. They.

He helps them transition into into getting back in the light and stuff like that. you know, he's obviously, you know, goes to church and stuff like that. But it was funny that he had that book because. know, it's, know, I think he mentioned it ⁓ on Larry Crohn's podcast about it being religious, but I thought it was more spiritual, especially when he said, you know, like you are a reflection of God.

Lianne Shinton (32:20)

is yeah.

Michael (32:23)

when you look in that mirror, you know what I mean? And what you see God is how you see yourself.

You know?

Lianne Shinton (32:30)

Yes, and I'm glad you said that because I actually talked to my mom last night. She's in book club all the time. She is very churchy. And I said to her, I'm going to be talking about this book, The Four Agreements. And she was like, no, it sounds like it's spiritual, Leanne. They're not talking about Jesus and stuff like that. It's spiritual. So she says it's important you make that differentiation.

Michael (32:54)

Yeah.

Lianne Shinton (32:58)

And I think that is important too for folks listening that, this isn't a religious book.

Michael (33:03)

Yeah, and ⁓

Yeah. And like what, what also talks about is, ⁓ we're taught fear, early age, especially when it comes to certain religions, like, you're going to go to hell if you do this, you know I mean? And puts you in this box of fear. And that's what I really liked about it because it wasn't anything like judgment. You know what I mean? Like of the roles that somebody else put forth, you know I mean?

Like, did you ever read The Secret or anything like that?

Lianne Shinton (33:32)

yeah.

It sounds familiar, but I don't think I did. But it sounds like...

Michael (33:40)

The secret,

it's kind of the same thing as the four agreements, but it's like what you put out in the universe comes back. And that's kind of the way I see the spirituality is like, you know, there's something out there that created all this. got to be aware of that. And what I've put out, I'll get in return. So if I put out, you know, like if I sit there and buy by these four agreements and I'm not assuming you causing, you know, I'm

Lianne Shinton (33:43)

Go ahead.

Michael (34:09)

unhealthy relationships because I'm doing things outside of it that are detrimental to it, not as you know, assuming that I know what they were talking about and then you know, having a conflict later, you know, and you know, the impeccable word like don't like, I hate pretending, like pretending to be somebody I'm not or saying things that I know aren't true. Like,

When we did the podcast last time, we were talking about bands at the end and stuff. And I went out to Biloxi to see my favorite band, Candlebox. you know, when my hair is down and like, you know, it got short sleeves on, my tattoos are out and I wear like my Ray-Ban tinted glasses everywhere. So I look like I'm in a band. And we went to the, to the hotel where the band was at and we were at this bar and like my friends were like, Hey man, let's tell them that you're from Candlebox and get this VIP table.

Lianne Shinton (35:07)

Hahaha

Michael (35:08)

And I'm like, that's not really my thing. And then I was just like, I didn't want to be a party pooper. I'm like, okay, you guys could sit there and string the song, but if they asked me to go up and play on the band, I'm going to the bathroom and I'm not coming back.

Lianne Shinton (35:21)

That's super funny. Well, that sounds fun. ⁓ So I just wanted to share too, because I jumped ahead after I read the four agreements and they have a book called the fifth agreement. And I'm in the process of listening to it now. And I am enthralled because it really talks about domestication and how as

Michael (35:40)

Yes, yes.

Lianne Shinton (35:51)

you know, children, have to learn a language and things like that, which is totally our jam because we're dog trainers and we domesticate and we teach a language to these animals. so that's the one I was like, I'm like listening to that book closely.

Michael (36:05)

funny

you said that because I have it sitting on my dresser and I'm like I'm I really got to read that and then when I reread it to prepare for this I'm like okay it's on my docket to read that.

Lianne Shinton (36:15)

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that.

Michael (36:18)

I'm glad you

said that, now I'm really going to read it.

Lianne Shinton (36:23)

Yeah, there was definitely like the four agreements, the always do your best one was the one that stood out to me. And then the fifth agreement, I am just beginning it. yeah, I really, it was aligned with the things that excite me, which is like the psychology of a human and a dog and language and things like that. That's what we do.

Michael (36:47)

Yeah.

Lianne Shinton (36:47)

We teach people, we teach dogs and that one's standing out. So we'll have to have a podcast 2.0 about that one once we finish it.

Michael (36:55)

Okay,

okay. I'll read it. Um, yeah. Uh, and let me, let me, uh, kind of talk about like the power of the book. Cause like it did something so much for me, like anytime I would get wind of a friend that was having something going on in their life, I would, uh, I'd like, what's your address? And I'd send them the book. $7 on Amazon. You know what I mean? And, um, you mentioned Fort Myers. have a lot of friends down there and, uh, one of the guys I knew

Lianne Shinton (37:16)

Hmm.

Michael (37:24)

He was like in one of the bands that played at my bar all the time and he had just broken up with his girlfriend and they were going, I thought they were going to be the super couple, right? And I asked him what his address was. I sent him the book and like two years later I run into him at a concert up in Tampa and he was like, Hey, what's up, man? He's like, thank you so much for that book. And he was like, now whenever my friends are in, he's like, I pay it forward. so now I keep like a couple of

copies in my car. You know what mean? Like, hey, here you go. I mean, it's like whatever, whatever helps. And it's just like, it's one of those things that's not like a, like a hard read. You know what I mean? And if you can put those four things, like things start to become a lot clearer.

Lianne Shinton (37:56)

Wow.

yeah.

Yeah, think, you know, Post-It notes.

Michael (38:13)

unnecessary suffering

is what think is what he said.

Lianne Shinton (38:16)

Yeah. Post-it notes on the bathroom mirror so that you, you know, consider them every day and center yourself because yeah, I mean, just to shift a little bit. One of the big things I talked to with dog trainers is that they hate sales and they feel like I got to drop my prices. I have imposter syndrome. I, I can't sell and you know, they, it's, it's a mindset because they can do this.

Michael (38:21)

Yeah.

Lianne Shinton (38:47)

⁓ But maybe we could just dive into a little bit of how the four agreements could help you if you're struggling with your evals or your consultations.

Michael (38:56)

So. ⁓

Are these trainers like just starting out or they've been doing it for a while?

Lianne Shinton (39:01)

kind of just starting out ⁓ having that natural ebb and flow of, you know, us in this world, it's busy, it's not busy, it's busy, and wondering what it is. ⁓ maybe it's my sales. And really, it's that you just didn't have the leads coming in. It wasn't you. It wasn't your closing rate. It wasn't that part of the process and feeling that imposter syndrome.

And I think that people can read that in us when we've been told no a few times and then we start to assume the no and we don't have the confidence that we need for a sale.

Michael (39:38)

Yeah.

It just comes in waves. When I started going out to Vegas, I had like one week where I had like six or seven demos and I didn't sell one of them. And I called Alfredo and I was like, dude, am I losing my mojo? You know what I mean? And he was like, look man, he's like, just keep on doing what you're doing. You know.

If you know what they got to realize is it just happens like that. Like it's nothing that they're doing wrong. You know, are they showing the dog, their dog, what they can do? Are they, are they taking their dog after the consultation and working with the dog to show them the impact? Cause if you don't, then you're not giving them, you're giving them ⁓ a confidence.

You're giving them confidence of what they can do and not like, I'm going to put a couple thousand dollars in this guy. I didn't really show me anything that that makes me convinced. You know what mean? And that's where like, like now I do my consultation. I'm not like, you know, they say, you know, I'm not sitting there pushing for the sale. You know what mean? The clothes or whatever like that.

I'm like, Hey, take your time. know it's a financial decision and the majority of them call me at some point, say I'm ready. You know what But again, you don't take it personally because they didn't do it. You know, some of those people, takes them months to even call a trainer. You know what I mean? And they're just like, ah, it might be just, I'll just accept the dog for what it is. You know I mean? There's, there's a bunch of dog owners that are like that.

Lianne Shinton (41:18)

Yes.

Michael (41:31)

It is what it is. There's no hope for them. You know what I mean? Yeah, I talked to a trainer, but you know, they're kind of the wishy washy type and you know, they kind of come in threes in groups. You know, got seven clients in a row that are ready to do it and then you got the seven clients in a row that, you know, it kind of just aligns up that way.

Lianne Shinton (41:50)

Yeah. And that's where it's like, don't make assumptions just because you've had three that weren't the right fit for whatever reason, they weren't ready. Don't make assumptions that when you get in front of that next person, that you're on a bad streak. Don't make assumptions and always do your best. think we can always better ourselves to be that perfect best at sales leaning into

taking classes, reading books on sales to always be doing our best to help in that specific area.

Michael (42:22)

Yeah, yeah.

Dave Sklepski and Darren Shepard, remember them?

Lianne Shinton (42:28)

yeah.

Michael (42:28)

So we used to buy like training videos and we record them and then send them copies to everybody so we'd all have them. We're always sharing like ⁓ a Zig Ziglar and what was that one about attitude that I really liked? I forget the name of it, but like, you know, getting into those kinds of groups and having people help you with those things and.

Lianne Shinton (42:51)

Hmm.

Michael (42:55)

I remember when I first started out, I would just be skipping over my words or I'd like sit there and say something. And I would, my mind would redirect and like, why am I telling the story? Where did I, where did I leave off the original story? know what mean? I think I was a lot to do with my ADD, but

Lianne Shinton (43:08)

Yeah.

Michael (43:13)

what, keep it simple, you know what I mean? And just like say the statement and let them give you the feedback. You know what I mean? Like if you're just talking over that, like sometimes it's just a matter of having, having done it so many times you're in, you're in your own zone and you're comfortable with it. You know I mean? Like I remember like the first couple of years I would, I would shake like underneath the table. I'm like, I was so nervous. I'm like, um, um, um, yeah. And then, um, um,

Lianne Shinton (43:21)

Yeah.

Michael (43:43)

You know what mean? But it's just one of those things you got to kind of just step in it and go through the trials and learn how to communicate and, and yeah, ⁓ learn what to say to the, to the type of person that is across from you. Cause the person before them might have had to approach it a little bit different. And that's again, it's experience, you know,

Lianne Shinton (44:07)

It's

experience. Yeah. Just like competing. If I walk onto the field and I'm shaky, I've been where my legs are shaking. I can't even walk and my knees are buckling. And I'm like, I don't even know why I signed up for this, but then the next trial gets a little easier and the next one gets a little easier. But yeah, experience is a big one. I think what you said too about like having that community with Dave and Darren and just like,

supporting each other, sending the books to somebody that needs it. I'm thinking of somebody right now that I know that something that she's just going through and I barely know her, but I'm like, I want to send her this freaking book because wow.

Michael (44:45)

Yeah, like

do it. You know what I mean? You know, cause that all that stuff is just lifting everybody up. You know what I mean? And you know, the dog training community can be really harsh. Um, you know, I think I have one trainer who's a food trainer and he's a really great guy. He's a really great trainer and he, he's a realist and like, you know, when he knows he can't solve an issue, he's like, here, go see this guy. He, he, he,

Lianne Shinton (44:48)

Yes, yes.

Yes.

Michael (45:13)

you know, specializes in it. You know what mean? That's another, I don't know why we keep on talking about Bob Jervis, but I remember when I was in his school and he was like, he was like, what's the only thing that two dog trainers will agree upon? And he goes, what the third one's doing wrong.

Lianne Shinton (45:21)

Bye.

what the third one's doing wrong.

Yeah, we all know that one. Yeah. And I think that's why schools, people gravitate to them. you know, with me and developing like Sit Me and Sit and turning it into a franchise, that just felt like, you know, the natural progression. Like all of us wanted to have like this family and this community. ⁓ So yeah, National Canine, like we're the same.

Michael (45:35)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, like the ISCP conference, you know, that's where I really started branching out because I was getting, you know, that's where I got introduced to the non-limitations of Robin Farland. ⁓ And then I watched her husband do a segment on branding. And that's where I came out with my logo, you know what I mean, from just having that experience. And then you're sitting out, you know, having lunch with

people that are dog trainers and they're like, ⁓ I never thought of that. And you're just adding other people's experience to your own and getting those wrinkles ironed out. And, the more you do that, you know, it's like, it's been a while. I think my last ICB conference was 2018. You know what I mean? And I'm due to do something just to kind of get, you know, that freshness back. You know what I mean? But that's why I tell people is like, you know, get around other communities.

Lianne Shinton (46:46)

Yeah.

Michael (46:57)

You know, don't think that what you're doing is to be all I know because there's always a different perspective like the 24 hour misuse. You know what mean?

Lianne Shinton (47:03)

Yeah.

Yeah, it absolutely, it takes a village. And I know from joining my dog sport club and we all as a team, we're trying to get certain people in the club to the world champion level. It's like, okay, there's three of us with the dog and the desire and some money. And the whole club just takes a village to get us to that world level.

Michael (47:12)

Yeah.

Lianne Shinton (47:34)

And it's the same with our business too. Like you've got, takes a village. We can't do this by ourselves. We need the books. We need the community in order to get ourselves to that next level, not get stuck and burned out.

Michael (47:48)

We need our automation dog software.

Lianne Shinton (47:51)

I really like the Wednesday meetings. So not many people know about the Wednesday meetings that we have, but it's turning into quite like a club on.

Michael (48:01)

Yeah,

just had like the last couple of Wednesdays, I haven't been able to do it. I'm still on the workflow one. I was just working on that before we logged on and we could talk about that after the podcast. I've got some little questions because it's like I got the workflow set up and then I save it and it reverts back to what it generated initially.

And I changed it to what I wanted to read. then as soon as I hit save and I do the test, goes back to.

Lianne Shinton (48:33)

okay.

I think I know what you're doing. We'll look at it right after this podcast. Yeah. And, but I love the, you know, the community, ⁓ we have trainers stepping up like yourself to speak on the podcast or to speak in our little club that meets on Wednesdays. Jim Claussen, do you know Jim from up in Boise, Idaho? Yeah. He, ⁓ he did like a Russell Brunson, ⁓ course and

Michael (48:40)

Yeah.

Sounds familiar.

Lianne Shinton (49:02)

made updates to his programs and his pricing. And since he did that shift, he's consistently having like $11,000 days. He's going to be speaking, I think on April 22nd to our little group ⁓ so that everybody can learn from what he has to share. I've got another one scheduled who's going to be teaching on ⁓ sales. Jim is also amazing at sales, but Lauren Bennett's going to be speaking from Walking with Walter on, I think, May 6th.

So we have lots of leaders coming up.

Michael (49:36)

I

watched Walking the Walter one.

Lianne Shinton (49:40)

Yeah, he's going to be speaking on sales and he's just so Jim is as well. it doesn't sound slick. It sounds kind and that's yeah, they're just going to be so great to learn from. yeah, I think but back to like we need it takes a village. We need support of each other. That's been through it. Like Mike, you've been in this for as long as I have like I've been doing this for 34 years and you know, I want to help others.

Michael (50:09)

Wow.

Lianne Shinton (50:10)

And, you know,

Michael (50:11)

Yeah.

Lianne Shinton (50:12)

I need help. So it takes a village. And if something we do or say can help someone else not go through as much pain that sometimes it takes to to go through it when you're building this kind of business, you know.

Michael (50:27)

Like I said, those little epiphanies that come out of nowhere just because you're around other dog trainers, like I said, it's like, you know, when you're in your community where you live, you're not going to be having conversations with other dog trainers. Unless you have like see them at an expo or something like that. And then you're just like, Hey, how you doing? You don't really talk shop because you don't want to like have them have your trade secrets and stuff like that. You know what I mean?

Lianne Shinton (50:54)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's there's definitely a lot of things we want to be able to share. have another I've reached out to couplepreneurs, if I'm saying it right, and they couplepreneurs like entrepreneurs, but couplepreneurs. And I reached out to them to ask them to be on the podcast because I, I think they found a really cool niche where a lot of these mom and pop shops like dog trainers.

Michael (51:07)

Who? What was it? Okay, okay. Okay.

Lianne Shinton (51:23)

we're running a business and it's like couples and we end up wanting to kill each other. It's a hard thing to navigate and be like, you know, a couple and run this business together. So that's an area that I was hoping an expert would come in and teach on because it's hard. And a lot of families are doing this dog trainer thing and yeah, it's rough.

Michael (51:47)

Yeah. Yeah. And there's like people in my, in my, since I've been here that have been here before me. And it's like, you know, ⁓ they do a lot of boarding trains and like, get feedback and it's just like, can't believe they're like, I'm like, I wish I could talk to them and say, Hey man, you, you're giving all of us a bad name. Like, you know, step up if you're going to, you've been doing it for this long.

Lianne Shinton (52:09)

Yeah.

Michael (52:12)

Yeah, before I can let them keep my laptop, this is about to die.

Lianne Shinton (52:15)

⁓ yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Always be your best. The fourth agreement. So yeah, don't don't do that. It's it's giving everybody a bad name and it's not good for the dogs. Be good to the dogs. Be good to your clients. Be good to your staff and be good to yourself.

Michael (52:21)

Olly Boone. Yep. Yep.

Mm-hmm. Amen.

Lianne Shinton (52:35)

Yep. Well, we're at the top of the hour almost. So is there anything else you'd like to add?

Michael (52:40)

No, you know, get the book, seven bucks, you know, and it's not, ⁓ I can't do audio book because something will distract me and I'll miss what they said. That's why I have to read it. You know what mean? It's why I like, if I'm watching like a TV series, I have to put my phone away because then I'll be like, what did they just say?

Lianne Shinton (52:45)

Yeah, yeah, audio book. It's like quick read.

Yeah.

Yep.

Michael (53:08)

And I have to rewind and be like, oh,

I missed a crucial part of it. So that's why I can't do audio books. I do podcasts and stuff like that. like, that's one of the things like your podcasts I've been really diving into, especially because YouTube has gotten my algorithm. So now I'm getting all kinds of dog training things. know what I mean? Like the Michael, who'd you refer, Michael.

Lianne Shinton (53:20)

Thank you.

Yeah.

Michael

Ellis, Michael Ellis, the goat.

Michael (53:35)

Ellis, yeah, yeah, like, and it's

like he's got like he's on all these podcasts. And I'm just like, Oh, my God, and he's such a wealth of information. It's like, again, saying things that you didn't think of thinking it in that perspective. And the more perspectives you have, then you could sit there and share those perspectives for somebody that might have that thing. And it clicks for them. The way you worded it.

You could sit there and try five times of a certain perspective and then you say that one time, you're like, yes, now I get it. Thank God. Because I was running out of analogies.

Lianne Shinton (54:06)

Mm

hmm. Yeah, yeah, definitely a lot of good advice there like leaning into learning from others to make ourselves better. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for this very unique podcast. I hope that someone listening can get the book if you know they're wanting to stay ahead of the burnout or if they're in the burnout that they can get the book and it'll help them through it. ⁓

Michael (54:19)

Yeah.

Awesome.

Lianne Shinton (54:36)

Yeah, excellent.

Michael (54:37)

Yeah,

you know, do things outside of the dog training that, know, like I always do long weekends every like once or twice a year. I'll meet up with some people like we'll pick a destination in the band and like, all right, we're meeting here. And you kind of let it out. You know I mean? Have a good time and come back refreshed, ready to go to work.

Lianne Shinton (55:02)

Mm-hmm.

Michael (55:06)

Down here, you'll start to see in Florida, we're real seasonal too, so that I always know where to take my breaks, especially in August, because August and September, it gets low here, and that's where it's really hot. So that's where I'm going to like Asheville and places that are like in the mountains. it's Colorado, stuff like that.

Lianne Shinton (55:27)

smart. Yeah, take a break. that's good advice because us entrepreneurs were like control freaks. And yeah, it's it's tough to take a break. The good thing too, with like, when I was, ⁓ I think I was in November, I was at a conference or a seminar, professional canines conference in Ohio. And ⁓ Bobby publico was there. He's one of my clients from Vegas. And he was just sitting there.

listening to the keynote, Justin Rigney, and he leaned over and he's like, hey Leanne, I booked like three or four consoles just during the keynote here, like all kinds of your system. So you can take that break, but the automation is doing the work for you so that you aren't missing out on, you know, running, having money to run your life.

Michael (56:09)

Right, right.

And that's like now that

I'm, yeah, and now that I'm starting to get into the things to cater it to what I need, it's gonna like, you know, like I'm always following up after the first lesson and I'll have it in my schedule and then the old day will go by and I totally didn't see it on my schedule. I'm like, oh, I totally forgot to do that. And you know, now that I could have a system that does it for me and know that it's out there, I won't.

take it personally that I screwed up, you know what I mean? Like, damn it.

Lianne Shinton (56:46)

Totally good. Awesome. Well, it was such a unique and great talk. I hope it helps somebody. Thank you again, Mike. And thank you, listeners. Yeah, well, definitely the fifth agreement.

Michael (56:48)

My ADD strikes again.

Yeah.

Yeah, anytime, anytime. And I think.

Lianne Shinton (57:04)

Awesome. Well, thank you, listeners. Thank you, Mike. This was such a unique and great conversation. And again, I'm Lee Enshinton from Automation Docs. yeah, get the book.

Michael (57:04)

Alright, cool.